AMA's 2019 Tax filing - the financial implosion continues
01-14-2021, 05:24 AM
#26
My Feedback: (13)
Consider this if you will. Except for the scale of it all, how different is the AMA from our own Federal Government?
Deficit spending, growing debt, pork barrel pet projects and the list goes on. And look at the individual citizen? Using credit cards to make credit card payments. Tax and debt relief help being offered on TV and other media. On line/smart phone help to improve credit ratings. No need to be responsible, Uncle Sam will simply print more money and call it a stimulus. And this has been going on now for generations as well as being taught in our schools. Bottom line is the public doesn't know any better with such education and examples leading the way. This is the new normal. Ecomonic ruin not only for the AMA, but the nation as a whole.
Deficit spending, growing debt, pork barrel pet projects and the list goes on. And look at the individual citizen? Using credit cards to make credit card payments. Tax and debt relief help being offered on TV and other media. On line/smart phone help to improve credit ratings. No need to be responsible, Uncle Sam will simply print more money and call it a stimulus. And this has been going on now for generations as well as being taught in our schools. Bottom line is the public doesn't know any better with such education and examples leading the way. This is the new normal. Ecomonic ruin not only for the AMA, but the nation as a whole.
But, unlike the government, the AMA does not get to just print more money. Ever since the US got off the gold standard, I believe in 1971(ish) under Nixon, our government had the ability to just print more money.
Since the AMA can't just print money, they are one day going to hit the end, assuming that the trend that Franklin points out continues.
01-14-2021, 05:32 AM
#27
My Feedback: (13)
All due respect but there are absolutely no supporting facts in your statement.
Meaning you expect us to take your word for it and quite frankly, your credibility when talking AMA is questionable at best.
You want to provide some supporting evidence and I for one will consider your statement. But without facts, your word simply doesn't cut it.
Meaning you expect us to take your word for it and quite frankly, your credibility when talking AMA is questionable at best.
You want to provide some supporting evidence and I for one will consider your statement. But without facts, your word simply doesn't cut it.
Franklin did allot of work and research on this. Thank you Franklin!
This is work that most of us would never do. We just want to fly our models and not plan for the future.
What Franklin's graphs and analysis shows is that the AMA is running itself our of money. Unless there are some changes, the day will come when either the dues will have to go up substantially. Because Lord knows, we gotta keep paying the Muncie expenses.
I'm really not trying to impugn the AMA, but I do like to go in to things with my eyes wide open. I think that that's the problem. We, as AMA members just want to fly our models and we take everything else that happens behind the scene for granted. What Franklin did takes allot of time and effort, that I for one, do not want to expend when I could be flying and building my airplanes!
01-14-2021, 09:09 AM
#28
Thread Starter
I don't think that it matters whether or not membership is showing a slight upward trend. What matters is the cash in and cash out.
Franklin did allot of work and research on this. Thank you Franklin!
This is work that most of us would never do. We just want to fly our models and not plan for the future.
What Franklin's graphs and analysis shows is that the AMA is running itself our of money. Unless there are some changes, the day will come when either the dues will have to go up substantially. Because Lord knows, we gotta keep paying the Muncie expenses.
I'm really not trying to impugn the AMA, but I do like to go in to things with my eyes wide open. I think that that's the problem. We, as AMA members just want to fly our models and we take everything else that happens behind the scene for granted. What Franklin did takes allot of time and effort, that I for one, do not want to expend when I could be flying and building my airplanes!
Franklin did allot of work and research on this. Thank you Franklin!
This is work that most of us would never do. We just want to fly our models and not plan for the future.
What Franklin's graphs and analysis shows is that the AMA is running itself our of money. Unless there are some changes, the day will come when either the dues will have to go up substantially. Because Lord knows, we gotta keep paying the Muncie expenses.
I'm really not trying to impugn the AMA, but I do like to go in to things with my eyes wide open. I think that that's the problem. We, as AMA members just want to fly our models and we take everything else that happens behind the scene for granted. What Franklin did takes allot of time and effort, that I for one, do not want to expend when I could be flying and building my airplanes!
The other major failing I see, from a management standpoint, is their steadfast resistance to transparency. Specifically when it comes to financial TRENDS, and without the "spin" of membership vs. revenue. I lost track of how many times going through the EC notes I read about how this new person / group / contractor is going to fix something, be it advertising revenue or membership acquisition. Then a year or so later they decide it's not working, then take another year to decide what to do. Then another year to actually do it. They're too slow. They're losing membership revenue and ad revenue to fast to let glaciers move faster than they do. But again, they're "Pretty smart."
I'll keep doing my part. Only when we start holding them accountable for what they tell us vs. what the objective numbers say, will they open up. I think it's well past time that they level with members and stop trying to put lipstick on multiple pigs at the same time: revenue trends (over longer than a year), membership number trends by category, 400 feet in class G, etc.
01-14-2021, 09:25 AM
#29
Agreed! For example, there are two 990 forms; a separate one for the Foundation.
I support the underlying mission and the purpose of the AMA. I understand the fact that less people are flying RC than before. And as such, costs per person will increase - and I am happy to pay for services received.
But let me know what I am paying for.
I support the underlying mission and the purpose of the AMA. I understand the fact that less people are flying RC than before. And as such, costs per person will increase - and I am happy to pay for services received.
But let me know what I am paying for.
01-14-2021, 09:49 AM
#30
Banned
..............................................
I'll keep doing my part. Only when we start holding them accountable for what they tell us vs. what the objective numbers say, will they open up. I think it's well past time that they level with members and stop trying to put lipstick on multiple pigs at the same time: revenue trends (over longer than a year), membership number trends by category, 400 feet in class G, etc.
I'll keep doing my part. Only when we start holding them accountable for what they tell us vs. what the objective numbers say, will they open up. I think it's well past time that they level with members and stop trying to put lipstick on multiple pigs at the same time: revenue trends (over longer than a year), membership number trends by category, 400 feet in class G, etc.
Not unlike the way we've recently lost the country.
01-14-2021, 05:12 PM
#31
I believe your issue with fully symetrical may be one simply of incidences. Determine your thrust line and set it at zero for reference. For a flat bottom wing your stab and the top of the floats should both be at zero degrees as well. The wing should be 1-2 degrees positive for a flat bottom. I suspect that for a symetrical you may need to add 1-2 degrees more for a total of 2-4 deg. Not ideal for a symetrical but............. Thrust line and floats should be at the same incidence. A positive thrust line will cause the floats to dig into the water. Not good. Ditto for negative wing incidence.
For the OP: Outer Zone plans service has a handful of float plans available for a free download. My preference would be to use either of the first two,the 33" from GS Scale Products or the 36" set from Flying Models. Both are basically Edo floats and can be easily resized to fit any model. Link: Outer Zone
For the OP: Outer Zone plans service has a handful of float plans available for a free download. My preference would be to use either of the first two,the 33" from GS Scale Products or the 36" set from Flying Models. Both are basically Edo floats and can be easily resized to fit any model. Link: Outer Zone
All due respect but there are absolutely no supporting facts in your statement.
Meaning you expect us to take your word for it and quite frankly, your credibility when talking AMA is questionable at best.
You want to provide some supporting evidence and I for one will consider your statement. But without facts, your word simply doesn't cut it.
Meaning you expect us to take your word for it and quite frankly, your credibility when talking AMA is questionable at best.
You want to provide some supporting evidence and I for one will consider your statement. But without facts, your word simply doesn't cut it.
Even though we appear to be on the same page regarding the AMA's various areas of mismanagement , I still find it quite distasteful that you , who obviously have credibility issues yourself , have the gall to come in here throwing shade on any other longtime member's credibility . Yes indeed , I also DO NOT believe what Andy posted , the difference is that I would far rather see his flawed position rebuked with the actual facts presented in Franklin's charts VS seeing him shouted down with personal attacks on his character such as you have attempted to do . Scale only 4 me obviously has you pegged as a former member as the two above quoted posts indicate , and as a likely previously banned member returning here perhaps a little more sticking to the actual subject and a little less of the chest beating credibility challenges to present members may be in order ? Remember , when you point the credibility finger at someone else , there are THREE fingers pointing right back at ya ! 
01-15-2021, 05:02 AM
#32
Banned
Ah yes, the anticipated dog pile. He doesn't drink the Kool Aid so he must be some kind of troll or previously banned member come back to haunt us! Let's investigate, let's check him out, let's see what's in his profile. And to paraphrase several PMs I've received, "I have met the forum bullies."
Tell me, are we to blindly believe a DVP simply because of the position he holds? Especially when there's already ample evidence to the contrary? And what does it say about the DVP when he makes such an obviously unsupported statement? Especially in the presence of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Shouldn't he too provide some sort of evidence when asked? And if he refuses, should his credibility then remain the same with regard to the matter being discussed? This sort of thing goes on all the time in the professional world folks. And as I've said before, I have been lurking for several years now. I've watched and gotten to know each and every one of you through your posts.
Fact of the matter is the AMA is in some serious financial trouble. And no amount of claiming otherwise be it from any or all members of the EC is going to change things. If the AMA doesn't do something major and do it soon, I'd give it less than a decade. But in an organization where only a very small percentage of the membership cares enough to vote, I don't see the membership forcing the issue nor getting any of the answers they deserve. And that includes the ones asked for here as well. Most other organizations would have a mutiny and coup by this point.
So like I said before, I had some questions I wanted answered. And you guys have done a splendid job of answering. So NO, I won't be joining the AMA. And NO, I won't get as involved in RC Planes as I had originally anticipated. I'll play around with it a bit at my own field. And if the Speedy brigade wants to have me banned? Go for it! Like I said before, I care not if I'm a member of this forum or not. And it does not harm me one bit to be banned from it. (Understand it this time Astro?)
Tell me, are we to blindly believe a DVP simply because of the position he holds? Especially when there's already ample evidence to the contrary? And what does it say about the DVP when he makes such an obviously unsupported statement? Especially in the presence of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Shouldn't he too provide some sort of evidence when asked? And if he refuses, should his credibility then remain the same with regard to the matter being discussed? This sort of thing goes on all the time in the professional world folks. And as I've said before, I have been lurking for several years now. I've watched and gotten to know each and every one of you through your posts.
Fact of the matter is the AMA is in some serious financial trouble. And no amount of claiming otherwise be it from any or all members of the EC is going to change things. If the AMA doesn't do something major and do it soon, I'd give it less than a decade. But in an organization where only a very small percentage of the membership cares enough to vote, I don't see the membership forcing the issue nor getting any of the answers they deserve. And that includes the ones asked for here as well. Most other organizations would have a mutiny and coup by this point.
So like I said before, I had some questions I wanted answered. And you guys have done a splendid job of answering. So NO, I won't be joining the AMA. And NO, I won't get as involved in RC Planes as I had originally anticipated. I'll play around with it a bit at my own field. And if the Speedy brigade wants to have me banned? Go for it! Like I said before, I care not if I'm a member of this forum or not. And it does not harm me one bit to be banned from it. (Understand it this time Astro?)
01-15-2021, 09:55 AM
#35
Don't fret , your new here , you'll get the hang of it eventually , , , in order to make the perfect omelette , a few eggs ARE gonna get cracked along the way ....
01-15-2021, 10:28 AM
#36
I look forward to continuing to learn.
01-15-2021, 12:19 PM
#37
They complain that no one pays attention or seems to care about the politics and direction the AMA seems to be going. Look at it as it stands. Only a couple of dozen care to become involved in the support of Franklins views. Franklin and the crew just cannot sell this to the masses. Why, because they have no workable alternative and constant complaining just doesn't cut it. I'm not positive but I think this might be the only place left that Franklin can drag out his soap box. I know he's been banned from other sites.
01-15-2021, 01:35 PM
#38
What ever happened to:
Professional Modelers of America
Joel A Wilson is with Gary Warren and 10 others.December 13 at 2:51 PM ·
Breaking news! Our FAA lobbyists had a great meeting this week and the final touches of one year of hard work has finally paid off for all of us !!!
COMING SOON !!!!
• PMA is Professional Modelers of America
NO DRONE ZONE !!!
• PMA is a model aviation organization, representing a membership who flies LINE OF SIGHT ONLY, from every walk of life, income level and age group.
• PMA is a self-supporting, non-profit organization whose purpose is to promote development of model aviation.
• PMA is an organization open to anyone interested in model aviation.
• PMA is the organizer of annual jet rally and Big Bird Airshows in combination with a full scale show held in Iowa, located on the old Aviation Expo grounds in August every year. Also will sanction any Fly-in For Chartered Clubs of the PMA in this Great Country with Full support and event $2,000,000.00 Primary Liability Insurance, plus FAA waivers when needed at full scale airports.
• PMA is the chartering organization and is actively working toward chartered fields all over this great country. PMA offers its chartered clubs official sanction, insurance, assistance in getting and keeping flying sites and flying
Site assistance. We will also be developing flying sites all over the United States for our members to use.
• Membership means you have a voice with PMA. We provide liaison with the Federal Aviation Administration. We plan on fixing the altitude and airspeed issue by working with the FAA and not against them.
PMA also works with local governments, zoning boards, and parks departments to promote the interests of local chartered clubs.
• For more information, contact PR Rep. Joel A Wilson/ Professional Modelers of America, 6010 Cliffland Rd Ottumwa, Iowa 52501. Contact number: 641-680-9375 email [email protected]
PMA VISION FOR THE FUTURE
We, the PMA will take model aviation into the future and protect this hobby from detrimental regulations and politics.
PMA will always have the ear of the modeler and help preserve the hobby for all ages and race in future model aviation. This will be our mission, and accomplice by the following:
• A partnership with leaders of the manufactures and government.
$2,000,000.00 PRIMARY LIABLITY INSURANCE
Making your current Field certified by the FAA and Protected!
• A clear understanding of the issues at hand and deal with them; listening to the member with an open mind.
• A leadership team that is aware and current on the hobby, and can respect the hobby and promote it to the youth of this great country. A leadership team that goes to events, and supports the PMA”s vision for the future vision for and the development of this hobby
PMA Mission Statement
The Professional Modelers of America was formed by modelers for modelers to: Promote, develop, educate, advance, and provide safety among modeling activities.
The PMA provides leadership, organization, communication, protection, representation, recognition, education and development of the future for modelers.
01-15-2021, 02:33 PM
#39
No Web Site, no info or updates???????????????
Someone in another forum claims this has Franklin written all over it. I think Franklin is banned from that forum so of course no answer or rebuttal.
Nothing on the structure or the rules of operation, cost to the member or clubs. Kind of light on facts and info if you ask me.
Not much when you do a search on the net............................................... ......
At least the Sport Flyers got up and running before spinning off into oblivion.
Someone in another forum claims this has Franklin written all over it. I think Franklin is banned from that forum so of course no answer or rebuttal.
Nothing on the structure or the rules of operation, cost to the member or clubs. Kind of light on facts and info if you ask me.
Not much when you do a search on the net............................................... ......
At least the Sport Flyers got up and running before spinning off into oblivion.
Last edited by Propworn; 01-15-2021 at 02:37 PM.
01-15-2021, 02:51 PM
#40
No Web Site, no info or updates???????????????
Someone in another forum claims this has Franklin written all over it. I think Franklin is banned from that forum so of course no answer or rebuttal.
Nothing on the structure or the rules of operation, cost to the member or clubs. Kind of light on facts and info if you ask me.
Not much when you do a search on the net............................................... ......
At least the Sport Flyers got up and running before spinning off into oblivion.
Someone in another forum claims this has Franklin written all over it. I think Franklin is banned from that forum so of course no answer or rebuttal.
Nothing on the structure or the rules of operation, cost to the member or clubs. Kind of light on facts and info if you ask me.
Not much when you do a search on the net............................................... ......
At least the Sport Flyers got up and running before spinning off into oblivion.
Damn dude , your Franklin fixation would be almost comical if it weren't so , , , creepy .... 
01-15-2021, 03:40 PM
#42
Thank You for setting that straight Andy , I remember you mentioning that you know the folks involved with PMA back when it was first discussed here some time ago . I also remember their proposed organization having many promising ideas , I just wasn't convinced that "Professional" belonged in their name , it seems "Recreational" would have suited their intent far better ?
01-15-2021, 04:27 PM
#44
I just had a thought. Do you think we can get RCU to do to the worm what Twitter and Facebook did to the President? It would make the forum a better place, wouldn't it?
01-15-2021, 04:58 PM
#45
Ah yes, the anticipated dog pile. He doesn't drink the Kool Aid so he must be some kind of troll or previously banned member come back to haunt us! Let's investigate, let's check him out, let's see what's in his profile. And to paraphrase several PMs I've received, "I have met the forum bullies."
The problem with what you've said above is that the people you are accusing of "drinking the AMA Kool Aid" , Astro and myself , are two of the people usually being accused by the "AMAish" of being ardently ANTI AMA ! Gee , I'd like to know which is it , am I an AMA Kool Aid drinking fanboy or one of the anti AMA minions ?????
Tell me, are we to blindly believe a DVP simply because of the position he holds? Especially when there's already ample evidence to the contrary? And what does it say about the DVP when he makes such an obviously unsupported statement? Especially in the presence of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Shouldn't he too provide some sort of evidence when asked? And if he refuses, should his credibility then remain the same with regard to the matter being discussed? This sort of thing goes on all the time in the professional world folks. And as I've said before, I have been lurking for several years now. I've watched and gotten to know each and every one of you through your posts.
Blindly believe anyone ? Not on yer life , sport .... In MY life I 100% believe in two things only , and mankind ain't involved in either of em ! But when it comes to responding to well respected fellow forum members I always approach things as the gent could be simply mistaken or misinformed instead of automatically accusing him of deliberately lying , as you appear to be doing with the credibility attacks .
Fact of the matter is the AMA is in some serious financial trouble. And no amount of claiming otherwise be it from any or all members of the EC is going to change things. If the AMA doesn't do something major and do it soon, I'd give it less than a decade. But in an organization where only a very small percentage of the membership cares enough to vote, I don't see the membership forcing the issue nor getting any of the answers they deserve. And that includes the ones asked for here as well. Most other organizations would have a mutiny and coup by this point.
I couldn't have said it better myself ! Fiscal mismanagement coupled with member apathy WILL be the end of the AMA , which of course will create a void to be filled by a leaner , more focused organization .
So like I said before, I had some questions I wanted answered. And you guys have done a splendid job of answering. So NO, I won't be joining the AMA. And NO, I won't get as involved in RC Planes as I had originally anticipated. I'll play around with it a bit at my own field. And if the Speedy brigade wants to have me banned? Go for it! Like I said before, I care not if I'm a member of this forum or not. And it does not harm me one bit to be banned from it. (Understand it this time Astro?)
And in closing , and truly with all due respect , if what you've seen in this tiny forum is what you'll cite as reason to walk away from either the AMA or the hobby , you really couldn't have been all that interested in the first place . The AMA could literally vaporize 2 seconds after I post this reply , and I still will fly model airplanes till I die . The AMA needs my membership to survive , VS me , who as long as I survive , AMA or not , my hobby will too .
PS , calling anyone here who has responded negatively to you "The Speedy Brigade" is SO flippin wrong it's like calling King Tut "just a little dead" . I know I have not called for you to be banned here , treat your fellow posters with respect and I don't care whether you've been banned in the past or not , I won't call for your (or anyone else's) banning here .....
The problem with what you've said above is that the people you are accusing of "drinking the AMA Kool Aid" , Astro and myself , are two of the people usually being accused by the "AMAish" of being ardently ANTI AMA ! Gee , I'd like to know which is it , am I an AMA Kool Aid drinking fanboy or one of the anti AMA minions ?????
Tell me, are we to blindly believe a DVP simply because of the position he holds? Especially when there's already ample evidence to the contrary? And what does it say about the DVP when he makes such an obviously unsupported statement? Especially in the presence of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Shouldn't he too provide some sort of evidence when asked? And if he refuses, should his credibility then remain the same with regard to the matter being discussed? This sort of thing goes on all the time in the professional world folks. And as I've said before, I have been lurking for several years now. I've watched and gotten to know each and every one of you through your posts.
Blindly believe anyone ? Not on yer life , sport .... In MY life I 100% believe in two things only , and mankind ain't involved in either of em ! But when it comes to responding to well respected fellow forum members I always approach things as the gent could be simply mistaken or misinformed instead of automatically accusing him of deliberately lying , as you appear to be doing with the credibility attacks .
Fact of the matter is the AMA is in some serious financial trouble. And no amount of claiming otherwise be it from any or all members of the EC is going to change things. If the AMA doesn't do something major and do it soon, I'd give it less than a decade. But in an organization where only a very small percentage of the membership cares enough to vote, I don't see the membership forcing the issue nor getting any of the answers they deserve. And that includes the ones asked for here as well. Most other organizations would have a mutiny and coup by this point.
I couldn't have said it better myself ! Fiscal mismanagement coupled with member apathy WILL be the end of the AMA , which of course will create a void to be filled by a leaner , more focused organization .
So like I said before, I had some questions I wanted answered. And you guys have done a splendid job of answering. So NO, I won't be joining the AMA. And NO, I won't get as involved in RC Planes as I had originally anticipated. I'll play around with it a bit at my own field. And if the Speedy brigade wants to have me banned? Go for it! Like I said before, I care not if I'm a member of this forum or not. And it does not harm me one bit to be banned from it. (Understand it this time Astro?)
And in closing , and truly with all due respect , if what you've seen in this tiny forum is what you'll cite as reason to walk away from either the AMA or the hobby , you really couldn't have been all that interested in the first place . The AMA could literally vaporize 2 seconds after I post this reply , and I still will fly model airplanes till I die . The AMA needs my membership to survive , VS me , who as long as I survive , AMA or not , my hobby will too .
PS , calling anyone here who has responded negatively to you "The Speedy Brigade" is SO flippin wrong it's like calling King Tut "just a little dead" . I know I have not called for you to be banned here , treat your fellow posters with respect and I don't care whether you've been banned in the past or not , I won't call for your (or anyone else's) banning here .....
My answers in Red ... Last edited by init4fun; 01-15-2021 at 05:01 PM.
01-16-2021, 10:17 AM
#47
Went looking for info on this new organization Professional Modelers Association and found very little. No website no information on structure etc. Found a link to another forum and one of the first posters made the comment re Franklin. I thought it was funny then further reading gave me the impression he had been banned from that forum. In that case in Franklin's defense he had no chance to deny or rebut the post on that site. I still find it humorous the number of faithful appear to be about the same on other sites in fact they actually seem to be the same ones . Is RCU the only one you guys have left?????LOL
Is there anywhere one can go to get more info on this new organization?
Last edited by Propworn; 01-16-2021 at 10:21 AM.
01-16-2021, 10:33 AM
#48
Funny , YOU seem to mention him FAR more than anyone else who posts here does , , , yeah , I'd call that "fixation" on your part .
01-16-2021, 10:37 AM
#49
I'm sorry I don't, they got a lot of chatter on social media then not a word.
I attended an AMA sanctioned event with one of the primaries a few months ago and there wasn't any mention of it and I didn't ask
I attended an AMA sanctioned event with one of the primaries a few months ago and there wasn't any mention of it and I didn't ask
Last edited by BarracudaHockey; 01-17-2021 at 04:24 AM.
01-16-2021, 10:44 AM
#50
Originally Posted by propworn
I thought it was funny then further reading gave me the impression he had been banned from that forum.
Originally Posted by propworn
I'm not surprised Franky is not part of it as that would take a little more effort than being a keyboard warrior. That kind of commitment takes hard work and a little intestinal fortitude something that might be lacking in those doing all the complaining here.
Is there anywhere one can go to get more info on this new organization?
Astro
