AMA's 2019 Tax filing - the financial implosion continues
01-16-2021, 07:44 PM
#51
Hog is that your answer for everyone you disagree with claiming they try and get people banned. What a knob. The minions seem to be the only ones who keep mentioning getting anyone banned.
What forums and who have I gotten banned. News to me please elaborate I just might be willing to take credit if the person deserved it. LOL.
Ok not a new organization but not one that I have payed any attention to before just wondering what happened to it.
What forums and who have I gotten banned. News to me please elaborate I just might be willing to take credit if the person deserved it. LOL.
Ok not a new organization but not one that I have payed any attention to before just wondering what happened to it.
Last edited by Propworn; 01-16-2021 at 07:58 PM.
01-16-2021, 11:10 PM
#53
Originally Posted by exf3bguy;
I guess it's time to have a discussion with moderation
Originally Posted by propworn
What forums and who have I gotten banned.
Originally Posted by propworn
Ok not a new organization but not one that I have payed any attention to before just wondering what happened to it.
Astro
01-17-2021, 12:13 AM
#54
Posting threads where the word banned was used is just more of your spin drivel. Show me where I asked a mod or instigated a complaint requesting banning anyone.
If I made comment over a year ago re this organization I don't recall . It happens some times especialy if it wasn't that significant or nothing useful came from the topic.
If I made comment over a year ago re this organization I don't recall . It happens some times especialy if it wasn't that significant or nothing useful came from the topic.
Last edited by Propworn; 01-17-2021 at 12:19 AM.
01-17-2021, 06:41 AM
#55
Professional and hobbyist by definition are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Could be changed as already mentioned. I wonder how many who refuse to join the AMA would be willing to join another organization? I believe many of these people are just not interested in joining any organization. Remove those who fly drones or BLOS and you will get a percentage of the remainder. Will this new organization have the resources to go toe to toe with the AMA when conflicts arise? Believe me they will real or not. Why would the AMA not fight for its very existence? They did with the SFA years ago didn't they? No reason you cannot belong to both organizations but will the stuff like the primary insurance cross over when flying at an AMA site. Sites will most likely be AMA or PMA only. The AMA already has wording that one must be an AMA member to participate at events and such. Those who fly competition most likely will have to have AMA membership as the FAI recognize only one organization as the official one of each country. World records and such are kept and recorded by the FAI. There may be problems with the PMA attempting to hold a NATS or anything called an American or US championships as the AMA has held these in the past. Like the SFA of the past this group may need deep pockets to survive litigation.
It should be interesting how things play out. I like the idea of primary insurance for you flyers in the US and a choice but the logistics of going head to head with an already established national organization such as the AMA is a bit daunting. All I can say is good luck. Remember that these posts RE the AMA on this site at best engage no more than a couple dozen players hardly representative of the modeling community in the USA. No, without documented proof and actual numbers you cannot claim to speak for anyone. You can express an opinion but even that is conjecture on your part.
Dennis
It should be interesting how things play out. I like the idea of primary insurance for you flyers in the US and a choice but the logistics of going head to head with an already established national organization such as the AMA is a bit daunting. All I can say is good luck. Remember that these posts RE the AMA on this site at best engage no more than a couple dozen players hardly representative of the modeling community in the USA. No, without documented proof and actual numbers you cannot claim to speak for anyone. You can express an opinion but even that is conjecture on your part.
Dennis
I doubt either organization would honor the others membership at their field. An AMA member is also a PFA member a claim at the AMA field you use primary insurance first then secondary. Does that mean the PFA covers its member even thought they are flying at an AMA event? Look at auto racing there are different organizations but you have to belong to the one that is holding the event. What ever insurance you have with the other organizations does not mean they will cover you at any event that is not endorsed by the insured organization.
What about the infrastructure/employees going to need more than a few to cover the needs of the USA. As said before they will need some sort of office along with everything that entails running the business.
Primary insurance vs secondary cost wise ????????
If this is a not for profit company/corporation there will need to be a board of directors/executive that run the day to day operations. Paid or volunteers and how are they chosen? Voting most likely will displace the original organizers within a few years and the direction of the organization will follow the voice of your elected reps.
The organization will need bylaws etc for operation and a set of rules/safety guidelines to satisfy the gov and the insurance carrier.
Just the start up costs will be daunting.
I would think if the PMA attempted to call/hold a NATS of their own or anything using US or Championship in the title they might face litigation from the AMA.
Nothing wrong with the idea however just the existence of this organization would send a message that they intend to solicit and lure members of the AMA to the ranks of the PMA. Why would the AMA stand by and let this happen? Like the SFA of the past I can see not only litigation against the new organization but against the individuals involved in the start up.
All I have heard are rumors basically he said she said about the possibility of a new group. Until there is something on the books, the name of the organization is registered as a not for profit, some sort of office/personal and equipment are in place and they start taking memberships I don't think it amounts to much accept for hearsay.
OH and by the way wouldn't this be a perfect fit for Franklin to get involved! All of his ideas and suggestions in on the ground floor so to speak, starting with a clean slate, certainly a cure for 90 years of ineptitude.
Dennis
What about the infrastructure/employees going to need more than a few to cover the needs of the USA. As said before they will need some sort of office along with everything that entails running the business.
Primary insurance vs secondary cost wise ????????
If this is a not for profit company/corporation there will need to be a board of directors/executive that run the day to day operations. Paid or volunteers and how are they chosen? Voting most likely will displace the original organizers within a few years and the direction of the organization will follow the voice of your elected reps.
The organization will need bylaws etc for operation and a set of rules/safety guidelines to satisfy the gov and the insurance carrier.
Just the start up costs will be daunting.
I would think if the PMA attempted to call/hold a NATS of their own or anything using US or Championship in the title they might face litigation from the AMA.
Nothing wrong with the idea however just the existence of this organization would send a message that they intend to solicit and lure members of the AMA to the ranks of the PMA. Why would the AMA stand by and let this happen? Like the SFA of the past I can see not only litigation against the new organization but against the individuals involved in the start up.
All I have heard are rumors basically he said she said about the possibility of a new group. Until there is something on the books, the name of the organization is registered as a not for profit, some sort of office/personal and equipment are in place and they start taking memberships I don't think it amounts to much accept for hearsay.
OH and by the way wouldn't this be a perfect fit for Franklin to get involved! All of his ideas and suggestions in on the ground floor so to speak, starting with a clean slate, certainly a cure for 90 years of ineptitude.
Dennis
Why is it a dig at Franklin? The AMA has been in existence for what around 90 years and Franklin and others feel they are inept. They don't seem to want to engage suggestions put forward by Franklin. Franklin should change tactics and get involved on the ground floor of this new organization where his ideas may get at best an open hearing. Why beat your head against a stone wall when a different option becomes available. I don't understand where you figure this is a dig at Franklin. This rallying to Franklin's defense for every perceived disparaging remark when Franklin is perfectly capable of fending for himself strikes me as the mark of a possible Fan Boy syndrome. Hope that's not the case.
Dennis
Dennis
Gee , this sure looks like an awful lot of talk for someone who now "can't quite recall" ever discussing the subject previously .I think Dennis is getting pretty close to politician status here with the "Selective Memory" thing .
PS , anyone else notice how he just HAD to try to twist a "Franklin angle" into it , just like he tried to do earlier in this very thread till Andy had to dope slap him with the reality that Franklin has nothing to do with the PMA ?
And then he has the nerve to say he's not obsessed with Franklin ? Methinks the lady doth protest a wee bit much
Last edited by init4fun; 01-17-2021 at 06:49 AM.
01-17-2021, 08:28 AM
#56
Lies will always catch up with liars. I learned that at a very young age.
Dennis and speed have to lie, twist and spin to fit their agenda and it always catches up with them. I think they truly believe that folks can't see through their BS, as witnessed by Dennis' convenient dismissal of my recollection of his discussion of this "new" organization over a year ago and init's subsequent proof of the discussion. Do we really think Dennis conveniently forgot? Not a chance! The thread that init posted wasn't even the one that I was referring to!! LOL What are the chances that Dennis "forgot" about this "new" organization after having multiple posts on multiple threads on multiple forums over a year ago?
I've watched them for years, over multiple forums do the same thing, over and over, it is very predictable. I sometimes wonder if they actually believe their BS, or are they are so desperate to be right, that once they are called out on their BS, they have to go on the offensive in order to "preserve" their imagined integrity?
Pretty sad that there are folks out there that get so emotional over toy airplane forums that they feel the need to lie, stalk, bully, threaten and disparage others that share the same passions because they sometimes have different opinions?
Hopefully someday, Dennis and Shawn will reach exalted modeler status (at least in their own minds) and they will relax enough that they can have honest, adult discussions about toys.
Astro
Dennis and speed have to lie, twist and spin to fit their agenda and it always catches up with them. I think they truly believe that folks can't see through their BS, as witnessed by Dennis' convenient dismissal of my recollection of his discussion of this "new" organization over a year ago and init's subsequent proof of the discussion. Do we really think Dennis conveniently forgot? Not a chance! The thread that init posted wasn't even the one that I was referring to!! LOL What are the chances that Dennis "forgot" about this "new" organization after having multiple posts on multiple threads on multiple forums over a year ago?
I've watched them for years, over multiple forums do the same thing, over and over, it is very predictable. I sometimes wonder if they actually believe their BS, or are they are so desperate to be right, that once they are called out on their BS, they have to go on the offensive in order to "preserve" their imagined integrity?
Pretty sad that there are folks out there that get so emotional over toy airplane forums that they feel the need to lie, stalk, bully, threaten and disparage others that share the same passions because they sometimes have different opinions?
Hopefully someday, Dennis and Shawn will reach exalted modeler status (at least in their own minds) and they will relax enough that they can have honest, adult discussions about toys.
Astro
01-17-2021, 08:42 AM
#57
I'll defer to your very own words on this one:Regards,
Astro
01-17-2021, 06:08 PM
#58
Just in case anyone is curious as to whether or not I always disagree with Dennis just because he's Dennis, here is some proof of the fact that when he does say something I agree with I note that just as well as I do when we disagree. I have no personal vendetta against anyone here and will find common ground with anyone also seeking it, provided they in turn don't have a vendetta themselves. Lately, it appears Dennis' only participation here is a vendetta against Franklin, and those he sees as Franklin's "minions". The thing is, Franklin has come to the board with his facts & figures laid out very well for all to see, his info coming from the IRS filings publicly available on all 501c organizations, and it paints a bleak picture indeed for our organizations future.
Now , and this challenge goes out to Dennis as well as anyone else who thinks Franklin's data is wrong, I don't want you to "show" me how well you can attack Franklin or those who believe his position is correct , I want you to show me how the data is wrong! If your SO sure that Franklin's facts are wrong, to Hell with the petty personal insults, SHOW ME where his data is flawed!!! Let's get right down to the nuts & bolts of exactly how the data doesn't mean what it appears to and leave the vendettas and petty bickering behind. I have a strong feeling that there IS no rebuke to the data and that's the basis for the continual attacks, but I'm truly willing to listen to how the DATA (and not Franklin , himself) is somehow off.
This quote is from my 2016 thread discussing whether one should be able to be a member of an AMA SIG without being a member of the AMA itself. Astro, Dennis, and myself were all in agreement, some good ol "common ground" that ain't all that common anymore with Dennis ever since he got his hate on for Franklin and any of us he considers Franklin's "minions" .......
Thank You RG , I appreciate your answer . Both Astro and Propworn also are saying the kinds of things I was thinking of when I created this thread . The purpose of an AMA sig is to have a subgroup of folks within the AMA who all fly the same type of model aircraft . This way that group can be aligned with other like minded folks and advocate for their type of flying and so on , but the basic premise of the group is that they all fly the same thing , combat , pattern , sailplanes , and all the rest of the different types of RC flight . Now , a sig member whose not an AMA member can't participate in any of these AMA flight activities since they have no AMA insurance , what good is a sig membership with no AMA (insurance) backing the flyer's sig membership ? Like Astro SO well put it , would it really be too much to ask them to join the parent organization as a way of supporting the sig that they want to enjoy the benefits of ?
Now , and this challenge goes out to Dennis as well as anyone else who thinks Franklin's data is wrong, I don't want you to "show" me how well you can attack Franklin or those who believe his position is correct , I want you to show me how the data is wrong! If your SO sure that Franklin's facts are wrong, to Hell with the petty personal insults, SHOW ME where his data is flawed!!! Let's get right down to the nuts & bolts of exactly how the data doesn't mean what it appears to and leave the vendettas and petty bickering behind. I have a strong feeling that there IS no rebuke to the data and that's the basis for the continual attacks, but I'm truly willing to listen to how the DATA (and not Franklin , himself) is somehow off.
This quote is from my 2016 thread discussing whether one should be able to be a member of an AMA SIG without being a member of the AMA itself. Astro, Dennis, and myself were all in agreement, some good ol "common ground" that ain't all that common anymore with Dennis ever since he got his hate on for Franklin and any of us he considers Franklin's "minions" .......
Thank You RG , I appreciate your answer . Both Astro and Propworn also are saying the kinds of things I was thinking of when I created this thread . The purpose of an AMA sig is to have a subgroup of folks within the AMA who all fly the same type of model aircraft . This way that group can be aligned with other like minded folks and advocate for their type of flying and so on , but the basic premise of the group is that they all fly the same thing , combat , pattern , sailplanes , and all the rest of the different types of RC flight . Now , a sig member whose not an AMA member can't participate in any of these AMA flight activities since they have no AMA insurance , what good is a sig membership with no AMA (insurance) backing the flyer's sig membership ? Like Astro SO well put it , would it really be too much to ask them to join the parent organization as a way of supporting the sig that they want to enjoy the benefits of ?
01-18-2021, 05:31 AM
#59
Hope you all are having fun. I spent my weekend on the RC simulator and building my RC boat. I am looking forward to spring.
Appreciate the detail at the top of the discussion, do not enjoy the pointless bickering since then. You won't change each other's minds.
Checking out...
Appreciate the detail at the top of the discussion, do not enjoy the pointless bickering since then. You won't change each other's minds.
Checking out...
01-18-2021, 08:49 AM
#60
Thread Starter
Another very disturbing trend is the acceleration of the decline in membership revenue. By inspection, it's obvious the slope of the line is much steeper since 2016 than in the years before that. But I did some calculations so we can put some numbers against AMA leadership's performance.
Over ten years, 2004 to 2014, the membership revenue decreased 29%.
Over just three years, 2016 to 2019, it declined nearly as much ... 27%.
The rate of decline has tripled under the "leadership" of the current EC, President, and ED.
Why are they still in office?
Over ten years, 2004 to 2014, the membership revenue decreased 29%.
Over just three years, 2016 to 2019, it declined nearly as much ... 27%.
The rate of decline has tripled under the "leadership" of the current EC, President, and ED.
Why are they still in office?
Last edited by franklin_m; 01-18-2021 at 08:52 AM.
01-18-2021, 09:03 AM
#61
Another very disturbing trend is the acceleration of the decline in membership revenue. By inspection, it's obvious the slope of the line is much steeper since 2016 than in the years before that. But I did some calculations so we can put some numbers against AMA leadership's performance.
Over ten years, 2004 to 2014, the membership revenue decreased 29%.
Over just three years, 2016 to 2019, it declined nearly as much ... 27%.
The rate of decline has tripled under the "leadership" of the current EC, President, and ED.
Why are they still in office?
Over ten years, 2004 to 2014, the membership revenue decreased 29%.
Over just three years, 2016 to 2019, it declined nearly as much ... 27%.
The rate of decline has tripled under the "leadership" of the current EC, President, and ED.
Why are they still in office?
01-18-2021, 11:06 AM
#64
Thread Starter
Not to mention, previous EC vs. current EC:
- Total Revenue: 15% decline over 10 years vs. 18% decline in just 3 years
- Investment Income: 16% decline over 10 years vs. 30% decline in just 3 years
- Travel: 18% decline over 10 years vs. 90% INCREASE over just 3 years
- MA Revenue: 0.58% decline over 10 years vs. 41% decline in just 3 years
- Total Assets: 28% decline over 10 years vs. 18% decline over just 3 years
Last edited by franklin_m; 01-18-2021 at 11:18 AM.
01-18-2021, 11:21 AM
#66
My disappointment comes from my perspective that it feels like the average member who bothers to “complain” or voices an opinion, seems to be met with a superior attitude, and comments like, “ We can’t please everyone”.
i just wish I could feel like the AMA and the EC and other AMA staff were truly interested in my opinions and were striving to legitimately discuss them.
While that MAY be happening, the impression and feeling I get is that it is not. Please use the few deeper questions I have posed to you here and in other threads to expound on simple, basic statements and claims you have made. You either don’t reply, or say you can’t
Regards,
Astro
01-18-2021, 11:31 AM
#67
Thread Starter
All your statement proves is that you've never bothered to even look and never bothered to ask the CFO. I realize you were busy counting the number of "mentions" in the FAA RemoteID final rule, but I humbly suggest maybe your time would have been better spent digging into financial Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) that actually matter. Which is, as part of the elected oversight ... YOUR job.
It's "doom and gloom" because the financial KPIs tell a "doom and gloom" story...
01-18-2021, 12:14 PM
#69
So, what happens if the numbers show the same trend continuing over the past year or two? Is it still Franklin's fault for spreading the "doom and gloom" if that's what the paperwork shows?
01-18-2021, 12:57 PM
#71
Thread Starter
One thing that's been remarkably consistent is the TREND over multiple years - and it's been all bad. So while you seem happy to say that single data point (2020) defines a line, I'm smart enough to say that one year doesn't change a trend.
Yep. Because you made such a big deal of it.
01-18-2021, 01:00 PM
#72
Thread Starter
While legally it is, AMA insists on keeping it behind the membership wall. Another trend I've noticed is regular application for filing extensions, which means the numbers don't even hit the IRS until several months after they're due based on AMA's fiscal year (aligns with calendar year). IRS gives them six months to file, and last two years (if not longer) AMA hasn't been able to meet that deadline .. and thus didn't file until Oct/Nov.
Yep. Like giant infusion of cash from PPP. And of course one year doesn't change a multi-year (or even multi-decade) trend.
01-18-2021, 01:52 PM
#73
Franklin, thanks for mentioning there is data in the members only part of the AMA website. Again, I am new and still learning.
I did some digging in these documents, and found a few interesting aspects:
Per the independent auditor's financial statement for 2019: Membership revenue, as stated in the first post, is 6.5M. However, total revenue is 10.2M. Total revenue is 50% higher than membership revenue - non-membership revenue is significant. (Do we have any accountants in the forum who can explain why the 990 shows 8.9M of revenue, while the auditor states 10.2? Tax implications??)
On a separate matter, 2001 total assets were 18.5M. In 2019 they reduced to 14.2M. Not going in the right direction, but also not the $35M loss implied by the "cumulative losses" graph in the first post.
And finally, 2019 spending exceeded income by 6%. This is a problem; fixable and worth discussing ways to help. How can opex be reduced 6 cents on the dollar?
I did some digging in these documents, and found a few interesting aspects:
Per the independent auditor's financial statement for 2019: Membership revenue, as stated in the first post, is 6.5M. However, total revenue is 10.2M. Total revenue is 50% higher than membership revenue - non-membership revenue is significant. (Do we have any accountants in the forum who can explain why the 990 shows 8.9M of revenue, while the auditor states 10.2? Tax implications??)
On a separate matter, 2001 total assets were 18.5M. In 2019 they reduced to 14.2M. Not going in the right direction, but also not the $35M loss implied by the "cumulative losses" graph in the first post.
And finally, 2019 spending exceeded income by 6%. This is a problem; fixable and worth discussing ways to help. How can opex be reduced 6 cents on the dollar?
Last edited by PopeyeCharlotte; 01-18-2021 at 02:06 PM.
01-18-2021, 03:18 PM
#75
Thread Starter
Second, the cumulative losses is just the magazines, and chart is labeled as such. It is simply the inflation adjusted total "magazines" revenue minus the inflation adjusted total "magazines" expenses.
Third, you are correct that they reported assets of $18.5 million in 2001. However that's not inflation adjusted. The inflation adjusted number (CY2019 dollars) is $26.7 million. I based my percentage decrease calculations on the ten year period beginning in 2004, not 2001. Again, all inflation adjusted dollars. I picked ten years because it's a convenient time horizon for long term performance. It's also the period for which the revenue (membership or total) is relatively linear, yielding good slope of curve info. But since you mentioned total assets going back to 2001, I've attached that chart (inflation adjusted) below. It's ugly ... down 46.8% since 2001 in constant inflation adjusted dollars.
As for how OpEx can be reduced by 6 cents on the dollar? The first place to start would be the magazines. They've lost money every year for which I've got data. The phrase "don't put good money after bad" comes to mind, so I'd put a fork in them ... "they're done." Other big targets would be what's typically your most expensive, and that's people. By any measure the membership is considerably smaller than in the past. I had a chart somewhere that showed total headcount across a pretty significant number of years, and it's relatively flat. So I ask "Nearly the same number of people to serve many fewer members?" Call me crazy, but that seems ripe for cuts too.
Note 1: I use the average CPI from this site - https://inflationdata.com/Inflation/...?reloaded=true and then I use the inflation adjustment factor calculation from this site - https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/constantdollar.asp
Last edited by franklin_m; 01-19-2021 at 02:41 AM.