RVM

I don't have any flat washers but only because they won't fit without distorting because of the cylinder head.

sundancer007

Mr Robinson. That is some real useful info. I have a Saito 125. 3 gallons of YS 20/20 fuel through it. I had a dumb thumb flight and the prop struck the ground and snapped at full throttle. Since the accident I have noticed a reduction of RPM. I have disasembled the engine and have found no fault. Today running the engine at 8500 rpm, I can hear a slight pinging only at WOT. valve clearances are to spec, no bent pushrods. Im baffled. The RPM before was 10k

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Dancer:

Prop strikes often damage the bearings, you might not feel any roughness but the races could be brinnelled and the balls have flat spots. If this is the case they will take more power to spin the shaft, lowering your peak rpm. A few more hours, if your bearings are damaged, will see then howling. A new set of composite stainless/ceramic bearings from RC_Bearings.com will run about $30-35, I'd change them.

With 3 gallons through the engine you probably have 7-10 hours on it, and while that's a little low for the stock bearings to fail (without the dirt nap) running all synthetic oil will in itself shorten their life. And you're going to want some good bearings before long anyway.

I did one engine a while back that seemed to have good bearings, but I couldn't get the rpm up on that one until I changed the bearings. Just as a guess you have the same thing.

Nothing wrong with the YS 20/20 fuel, so long as you add four ounces of good castor oil to each gallon.

Bill.

jb86

My Feedback: (8)

i run wildcat 15% nitro full synthetic in all my 2 & 4 strokes. i read several years ago that castor in a 4 stroke can cause some type of gumming in the valve area. because the four stroke is lubricated by the fuel sloshing around in the valve train and pushrod tubes, it may not drain out and gum up, and have been told that is was a better choice to use only synthetic. the only down side that i have heard up till now, in a slightly lean run, a little castor helps to keep things lubricated (a little insurance).
how do i buy castor? i may consider adding a little from now on. i've been following this thread for about a week, some good info, thanks
jon b

Jimmy Hoffa

My Feedback: (3)

Bill,
What is your opnion of using 20% vs 30% fuel with regards to engine life. My Saito 82 picks up 500 RPM and seems to idle a little better with 30%, but it's not enough improvement if I'm prematurely wearing it out. How about adding 4oz of castor to 30%?
Phillip

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Though generally a little more expensive, you can buy castor oil at Walmart or any drugstore. It will work just fine.

The caster oil we usually talk about on here is Sig castor that comes in quart bottles. They bought it at the hobby shop.

At some hobby shops you may see other brands of oil with names like Klotz or Morgans. Some of this is castor oil, some is a synthetic and some is a blend of synthetic and castor.

You may sometime come across Klotz Nitro Oil and this is more for the purpose of adding nitro to your fuel than oil.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Running 20-30% nitro in a Saito seems to do little harm as long as the engine is not run hot or over revved.

Some people say that a engine is only capable of producing a given amount of total energy and you can get it all at once or over a longer period?

I have a 72 that was always run on 30% Heli. It seems to be just fine. No different than some of my other Saitos that were run on Omega 10%.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Jimmy:

I have seen no measurable difference in wear between using 10% and 30% nitro fuels, if you want the added power and can stand the expense go with the 30% fuel.

If you are buying Cool Power fuel, of whatever nitro percentage, and adding castor oil it just makes sense to me to buy the Omega instead, the castor oil is already in the Omega.

For adding castor oil, as W8YE Jim said, you need to be careful what Klotz product you buy.

TECHNOPLATE is all synthetic oil, avoid it.
SUPER TECHNOPLATE is an 80/20 synthetic/castor blend, this is good if you are mixing your own fuel.
BENOL This is Klotz' pure castor oil, get this product to add castor oil to a pure synthetic, or to increase the castor percentage of an existing fuel.

The Sig castor oil is pure, use it without worries.

Also, any pharmaceutical (USP) castor oil can be used from your local drug store or supermarket. Again as Jim said, more expensive. Roughly twice the cost of the Klotz Benol or Sig castor.

Finally, if you find a source of "Baker's AA" castor oil at a lower price, this is what you are buying from Klotz and Sig.

Bill.

Garthwood

Hi Bill.........................signing in as # 406. I have 2 Saitos .72...91S, 1.20. Planning to get the Saito 100 for my UCD . This Club Saito is quite interesting. Lots of info, thank you all. It's a lot of pages so I have to get going and start reading.
Thanks for the Saito notes.

Charles.

Garthwood

Bill.................I haven't read all the pages, so I don't know if any of the guys are using PowerMaster fuels. I am using the Power Master fuel 15% nitro Methane Heli with 20% Oil All Synthetic. I'm being told not to add more oil to this blend.
You mentioned the Klotz Benol, (Racing Castor Oil) I used to use this product with my two strokes. It is degummed and extra fortified , blends ith Methanol Alcohol and Gasoline. Is this product ok for 4 strokes to add to the Power Master blend that I mentioned above ?. The oil in the Power Master is 20% oil all synthetic. I am stuck with three cans (3 gallons) of this product. It is an excellent product not cheap. Please explain. I'm green with 4 strokes and don't have your revered experience in the hobby. Posting some pics.
Charles.

flivver

HI,
I'm going to fly a DR-1 with a saito52. I want to know what will be the best fuel (amount of NITRO)

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Use 10 or 15% nitro and 18% oil just like in a two stroke engine

The 20-20 Powermaster should be fine the way it is but it is OK to use the Benoil in four stroke model fuel if that's what you have.

Garthwood

Hobbsy...........I loved your Saito Lyrics...............You think you can come up with some kind of a country style tune ?. Now for those of us including myself who really don't know too much about adjusting a 4 stroke. I know a bit, and haven't had the four strokes long enough. I have the Saito engines book, but it is very limited to what one can learn. Can anybody suggest a good read, prefer though on the Saitos. When it comes to the low end needle adjustment I tend to shy away. With my Saitos .72 it is hard to idle down to 2200, it seems that it wants to idle faster. I did notice that the Saitos need a bit longer warm up, once they warm up the idle goes up. Although I do like that 2300 rpm idle, landings are better to my taste. Never experienced dead sticks with my saitos, maybe perhaps because of this kind of idle.
Charles.

Garthwood

I am using 15% nitro and 20% all synthetic Oil, Power Master fuel. You are saying that it is ok to use the Klotz Benol castor oil ?.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Hobbsy,

Tabs would be nice for your song?

Get out your 12 string and work some up?

There's more on Saito's right here than any book. Just read-read-read.

There is a guy in Alaska with a web site that likes Saito singles and has accumulated a lot of information. He must read this thread because if something new shows up here, it will show up on his site too? His site is indexed where you can find what you want right away. You need to take a look....

http://saito-engines.info/

Garthwood

w8ye......................thanks, I check that web site out.

Charles.

mstcitabria

That is a pretty impressive website, very informative! Brenton really must love his Saito's as much as the rest of us to devote so much time and effort to this site. We all should be very appreciative of people like him and W. Robison...
mstcitabria

WRM

Hi
I see you are going at the old castor / synthetic thing. The truth is both are good in their own way . Castor moves heat away from the parts, while the synthetic lubricates the parts. So you would say both would be great, right? Let's see when using a fuel with castor in it, you must isolate your fuel tank, or it will foam. This is a fact. Castor will varnish, carbon up, and it will get thick if left in your engine very long. Synthetic doesn't do any of the above. It coats parts different from castor. So which should you use ? That is up to you. I use all symthetic. But what do I know I just test the stuff. But I will share this with you, adding castor to your fuel you will dilute your fuel. What do I mean? Your fuel is mixed by volume or weight and will have less nitro and alcohol percentage wise than you started with.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

All:

Quote:

ORIGINAL: barber 701
But I will share this with you, adding castor to your fuel you will dilute your fuel. What do I mean? Your fuel is mixed by volume or weight and will have less nitro and alcohol percentage wise than you started with.

Almost, but not quite, an "Old Wive's Tale."

Let's start with Cool Power 20% nitro just for an example.

18% oil - 23.04 ounces of synthetic.
20% nitro - 25.6 ounces of nitromethane
62% methanol - 79.36 ounces of methyl alcohol.

Now let's add four ounces of castor oil, giving 132 ounces total volume. That leaves us with:

23.04 ounces of synthetic, 17.45%
4 ounces of castor, 3.03%
25.6 ounces of nitromethane, 19.39%
79.36 ounces of methanol, 60.12%

Gentlemen, going from 20% nitro to 19.39% is too small a change for any of our engines to notice, dilution of the fuel by adding a minimal amount fo castor oil is an argument without foundation. And the advantages of the castor oil are too great to ignore.

Bill.

RVM

500RPMs is not an insignificant gain in power... it's quite a bit, in fact. I'm probably going to go from 20% to 30% nitro soon myself, just for the extra power. I want to try a gallon of the Omega 30%, or, if I can find it, Cooper Fuel 30%.

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Bone, I did this to my 1.50, I haven't decided whether I did good or bad. My theory was that the oil would come out of the vent in the backplate and flow through the cam area and then out. I seems to work better when I leave both open to the atmosphere.

N1EDM

My Feedback: (2)

Bill was kind enough to forward a copy of the November 2006 Saito Notes to me, and I received permission to put them on our club's website.

If you'd like to download a copy for yourself, head up to http://www.ssrcc.org/Miscellaneous.htm . Bill's only request was that if you pass the notes along, please leave the header attached, with the Copyright.

Thanks again, Bill.

Bob

RVM

I have a regulator question for those with lots of experience using them:

I have an IB regulator on my Saito .82. It runs flawlessly (so does the .82). My only concern is I am having an almost impossible time setting the highspeed needle. With an APC 14x4w the needle responds quite well. I feel like it is adjusted where it needs to be (about 300-500RPM rich). With an APC 15x4w I can screw it almost all the way in with no change in RPM, and just about pull it off with the same effect. I also noticed with the 14x4w that the engine peaks with the needle around 2.25 turns out. That seems odd to me, especially with a regulator, since I was under the impression you would have to dial the needle in quite a bit more to lean the mixture. Even more odd is the fact the needle has no effect when using one size prop. I switched props 5 times today and the only prop the needle responds to is the 14x4w. Go figure.

The lowspeed needle is a lot more sensitive with the regulator. I'm having no problems setting it at all.

By the way, with 1/4 - 1/2 gallon of 20%/15% (nitro/castor & synth blend) I'm getting 9350 RPM peak on the APC 15x4w and 10100 with the 14x4w. Do these numbers seem about right? I tached the engine with the 14x4w at 10700 the other day but I'm guessing that was a fluke. Either that, or I am running the engine a whole lot richer than I think I am. Considering the problems tuning the highspeed needle, I guess that is possible.

Thanks!

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

RV, if your Saito was originally set up with a pretty good tank set up, the needles will hardly change at all when you use the regulator. You have to remember that the regulator is responding to the amount of air that is flowing through the carb, no matter how rich you set the hs speed needle the regulator can only respond to the amount of fuel draw generated by the venturi effect of the airflow.
That's most likely where Jim Cline got the Name PCFS or Proportional Control Fuel System.

RVM

Ohh, ok. I'll take this to mean my fuel system set up gets an A+ then, since the needle is almost exactly where I set it on the first break-in tank before I attached the regulator. It is a bit more lean, but that's about the only change.

Do you have any idea why it won't respond at all when using props besides the 14x4w? I'm going to try a MAS wood scimitar 14x6 tomorrow, and I've got some others I can try too. I just find this a bit disconcerting, as I hate not being able to tell how I am running the engine. When I had the 15x4w on there I was sitcking my finger in the exhaust to make sure lots of oil and/or raw fuel was coming out so I knew it wasn't too lean. I've got excellent transition and I'm idling reliably at around 2200 RPM, if that matters.

As a side note, the .82 did seem to vibrate a lot more than my .91s did, but leaning in the low speed dramatically reduced it. It's still vibrating, of course, but it is only slightly more intense than my .91s, and I still have a lot of leaning to do over the next few gallons.

Thanks for the reply Hobbsy!