Welcome to Club SAITO !
12-10-2006, 08:27 PM
#5601
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
PL:
From the color of the ring face it's a pretty low time engine, you may have been well advised to leave the piston in the cylinder. Regardless, since it shows little to no wear I'd put it back in.
Bill.
From the color of the ring face it's a pretty low time engine, you may have been well advised to leave the piston in the cylinder. Regardless, since it shows little to no wear I'd put it back in.
Bill.
12-10-2006, 08:33 PM
#5602
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
One more thing - if you take the rocker pedestals off the cylinder remember which one was where, the exhaust and intake are just slightly different.
And for all you skeptics, the Big Block Saito engines have removable rocker pedestals. Grind one in inverted it's a lot less expensive than buying a complete cylinder as you have to do on a Mid Block.
Bill.
And for all you skeptics, the Big Block Saito engines have removable rocker pedestals. Grind one in inverted it's a lot less expensive than buying a complete cylinder as you have to do on a Mid Block.
Bill.
12-10-2006, 10:00 PM
#5603
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Hey can someone steer me in a direction?
My .72 runs good but not great, cannot bump start it anymore, and when I turn it over by hand, I hear air escaping from the crankcase oil port, but it seems to still have good compression. I know a little bit goes down there, but this seems excessive.
Is it time for a rebuild, can I zero in on something, rings? some little port, I dont know the engine very well, but am willing to learn and rebuild it myself, done a few gasoline engines before.
If someone can steer me in a direction on what to check, and what to order.... I would appreciate it.
thanks
goose
My .72 runs good but not great, cannot bump start it anymore, and when I turn it over by hand, I hear air escaping from the crankcase oil port, but it seems to still have good compression. I know a little bit goes down there, but this seems excessive.
Is it time for a rebuild, can I zero in on something, rings? some little port, I dont know the engine very well, but am willing to learn and rebuild it myself, done a few gasoline engines before.
If someone can steer me in a direction on what to check, and what to order.... I would appreciate it.
thanks
goose
12-10-2006, 10:07 PM
#5604
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
William, thanks for the update and clarification mentioned earlier on the bearing seal topic. I figured the leak issue quickly and switched seals. Paul at Rc Brearings is a wonderful person to talk to and provides good support. The prices for ceramics and Hi speed replacements are a steal as you already know. The good news is that my saito motors are running and performing well. If I could just remember when flying inverted that down is up, and up is expensive.
12-10-2006, 10:17 PM
#5606
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Goose:
If your FA-72 is more than a couple years old it could well have the old style back plate which allows the carb to vibrate up and down, leading to failure of the upper o-ring on the intake pipe. And if you're turning the engine with the throttle closed that couold be the leak you hear instead of the case vent. If it is indeed the case vent it's not to worry about.
First picture is the old style back plate, it should be replaced without question. Second is the new plate, you can see there's much more material in it along with ribs to support the carb. Third picture shows the carb against the support ribs.
Old back plate or new, I'd order an engine gasket kit and replace the upper o-ring. Use the one in the kit labeled "Viton" there.
Dancer:
Good line, sir. One that I've run up against a time or two as well.
Bill.
If your FA-72 is more than a couple years old it could well have the old style back plate which allows the carb to vibrate up and down, leading to failure of the upper o-ring on the intake pipe. And if you're turning the engine with the throttle closed that couold be the leak you hear instead of the case vent. If it is indeed the case vent it's not to worry about.
First picture is the old style back plate, it should be replaced without question. Second is the new plate, you can see there's much more material in it along with ribs to support the carb. Third picture shows the carb against the support ribs.
Old back plate or new, I'd order an engine gasket kit and replace the upper o-ring. Use the one in the kit labeled "Viton" there.
Dancer:
If I could just remember when flying inverted that down is up, and up is expensive.
Bill.
12-10-2006, 10:21 PM
#5608
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Goose:
Forgot to mention one thing many don't check - the valve clearance. If you've never reset them that could also be part of your difficulty.
Bill.
Forgot to mention one thing many don't check - the valve clearance. If you've never reset them that could also be part of your difficulty.
Bill.
12-10-2006, 10:24 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings
I also would like to know who is saying that ceramic bearings are so fragile and why.
I also would like to know who is saying that ceramic bearings are so fragile and why.
Hardness: This is a material's ability to resist deformation under compression. Ceramic is *very* hard, steel is also hard but only about one third as much.
Modulus of elasticity: This is a material's tendency to deform under pressure yet return to its original size/shape when that pressure is removed.
Toughness: This is a material's ability to resist damage due to sudden forces. All else being equal, a higher moduls of elasticity will mean a tougher material. Tough materials may not be as hard or as resistant to bending as other materials but they're harder to break because they yield slightly to the pressure or shock
Low-carbon steel is a medium-hard material with a moderate modulus of elasticity and reasonably good toughness. It's pretty hard to break a nail with a hammer -- right?
By comparison, a piece of ceramic -- such as a fine bone china teacup, is actually much harder and can even be stronger than steel under some circumstances. In fact, it's quite easy to scratch steel with a bit of ceramic material.
Beacuse of its hardness, ceramic can also resist abrasion and wear very well.
However, despite its strength and hardness, try dropping a teacup onto a concrete floor and you'll see what can go wrong when something just has no flexibility (a poor modulus of elasticity).
Instead of the energy imparted by the shock simply deforming the material (thus absorbing that shock), the ceramic tends to concentrate the shockwaves into areas of very high and low tension and compression within the material. These forces can end up being many many times the actual yield strength of the material -- thus it shatters.
So, you can put a huge load on ceramic -- so long as it's applied relatively slowly and is a fairly constant force -- but if you shock it it will fail much easier than a "tougher" yet fundementally weaker material such as steel.
The final test...
Get one of those really thin spun stainless steel bowls that you can buy at the discount shop (about a 6-9" diameter.
Get a ceramic bowl of the same size.
Place both bowls upside down on a very smooth surface (maybe even a rubbers heet to ensure there are no localized areas of stress).
Place another rubber pad and flat sheet on top of the bowls. Now start adding weight.
The stainless bowl will collapse before the ceramic bowl. That's because the ceramic will be stronger and you're adding the weight slowly so as to apply a constant force.
Now take two new bowls. Drop them both on a cocrete surface. What's happened to the *stronger* bowl?
Translating this into bearings...
Undeer normal use, the ceramics will outlast the steel bearings by a significant degree and are therefore a good investment.
However, if you pile your engine nose-first into the tarmac there's a much higher chance of catastrophic bearing failure.
Likewise, if you insert your bearings by bashing them home with hammer, chances are you'll chip or fragment a ball. Of course this isn't good for regular bearings either because you'll almost certainly brinnel (create flat-spots on) the balls then too. However, there is a chance that the ceramic will shatter with shock-levels that are much lower than that which would be required to damage a regular bearing.
The solution (as some have suggested) is to ensure that your crankcase is well heated before inserting the bearings.
If they get stuck at an awkward angle, dont' be afraid to heat the engine up again to get them out and start-over.
Resist the temptation to whack them home -- it could be expensive.
Note that I've taken some liberties with descriptions and meanings above -- in an attempt to simplify and make things easier to understand for those who prefer to just fly rather than dabble in metalurgy and the details of engineering :-)
12-10-2006, 10:30 PM
#5610
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Bill
Definitely the old plate, but I am for sure it's the crankcase vent because i had a hose attached to it, and it sprayed oil mist on the bench quite well but mostly on me. I have a .56 that whistles out the carb hole, and the o ring is damaged, Its in the hopper to be fixed this winter, so I understand what you are saying. Thanks for the help, I know what to do now. Let you know how it runs. I gotta get this running good because I just got my new DX7 spektrum, and I need stick time!!!!!
g
Definitely the old plate, but I am for sure it's the crankcase vent because i had a hose attached to it, and it sprayed oil mist on the bench quite well but mostly on me. I have a .56 that whistles out the carb hole, and the o ring is damaged, Its in the hopper to be fixed this winter, so I understand what you are saying. Thanks for the help, I know what to do now. Let you know how it runs. I gotta get this running good because I just got my new DX7 spektrum, and I need stick time!!!!!
g
12-10-2006, 10:47 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: XJet
To understand the limitations and advantages of ceramic materials you first need to familiarize yourselves with several terms:
Hardness: This is a material's ability to resist deformation under compression. Ceramic is *very* hard, steel is also hard but only about one third as much.
Modulus of elasticity: This is a material's tendency to deform under pressure yet return to its original size/shape when that pressure is removed.
Toughness: This is a material's ability to resist damage due to sudden forces. All else being equal, a higher moduls of elasticity will mean a tougher material. Tough materials may not be as hard or as resistant to bending as other materials but they're harder to break because they yield slightly to the pressure or shock
Low-carbon steel is a medium-hard material with a moderate modulus of elasticity and reasonably good toughness. It's pretty hard to break a nail with a hammer -- right?
By comparison, a piece of ceramic -- such as a fine bone china teacup, is actually much harder and can even be stronger than steel under some circumstances. In fact, it's quite easy to scratch steel with a bit of ceramic material.
Beacuse of its hardness, ceramic can also resist abrasion and wear very well.
However, despite its strength and hardness, try dropping a teacup onto a concrete floor and you'll see what can go wrong when something just has no flexibility (a poor modulus of elasticity).
Instead of the energy imparted by the shock simply deforming the material (thus absorbing that shock), the ceramic tends to concentrate the shockwaves into areas of very high and low tension and compression within the material. These forces can end up being many many times the actual yield strength of the material -- thus it shatters.
So, you can put a huge load on ceramic -- so long as it's applied relatively slowly and is a fairly constant force -- but if you shock it it will fail much easier than a "tougher" yet fundementally weaker material such as steel.
The final test...
Get one of those really thin spun stainless steel bowls that you can buy at the discount shop (about a 6-9" diameter.
Get a ceramic bowl of the same size.
Place both bowls upside down on a very smooth surface (maybe even a rubbers heet to ensure there are no localized areas of stress).
Place another rubber pad and flat sheet on top of the bowls. Now start adding weight.
The stainless bowl will collapse before the ceramic bowl. That's because the ceramic will be stronger and you're adding the weight slowly so as to apply a constant force.
Now take two new bowls. Drop them both on a cocrete surface. What's happened to the *stronger* bowl?
Translating this into bearings...
Undeer normal use, the ceramics will outlast the steel bearings by a significant degree and are therefore a good investment.
However, if you pile your engine nose-first into the tarmac there's a much higher chance of catastrophic bearing failure.
Likewise, if you insert your bearings by bashing them home with hammer, chances are you'll chip or fragment a ball. Of course this isn't good for regular bearings either because you'll almost certainly brinnel (create flat-spots on) the balls then too. However, there is a chance that the ceramic will shatter with shock-levels that are much lower than that which would be required to damage a regular bearing.
The solution (as some have suggested) is to ensure that your crankcase is well heated before inserting the bearings.
If they get stuck at an awkward angle, dont' be afraid to heat the engine up again to get them out and start-over.
Resist the temptation to whack them home -- it could be expensive.
Note that I've taken some liberties with descriptions and meanings above -- in an attempt to simplify and make things easier to understand for those who prefer to just fly rather than dabble in metalurgy and the details of engineering :-)
ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings
I also would like to know who is saying that ceramic bearings are so fragile and why.
I also would like to know who is saying that ceramic bearings are so fragile and why.
Hardness: This is a material's ability to resist deformation under compression. Ceramic is *very* hard, steel is also hard but only about one third as much.
Modulus of elasticity: This is a material's tendency to deform under pressure yet return to its original size/shape when that pressure is removed.
Toughness: This is a material's ability to resist damage due to sudden forces. All else being equal, a higher moduls of elasticity will mean a tougher material. Tough materials may not be as hard or as resistant to bending as other materials but they're harder to break because they yield slightly to the pressure or shock
Low-carbon steel is a medium-hard material with a moderate modulus of elasticity and reasonably good toughness. It's pretty hard to break a nail with a hammer -- right?
By comparison, a piece of ceramic -- such as a fine bone china teacup, is actually much harder and can even be stronger than steel under some circumstances. In fact, it's quite easy to scratch steel with a bit of ceramic material.
Beacuse of its hardness, ceramic can also resist abrasion and wear very well.
However, despite its strength and hardness, try dropping a teacup onto a concrete floor and you'll see what can go wrong when something just has no flexibility (a poor modulus of elasticity).
Instead of the energy imparted by the shock simply deforming the material (thus absorbing that shock), the ceramic tends to concentrate the shockwaves into areas of very high and low tension and compression within the material. These forces can end up being many many times the actual yield strength of the material -- thus it shatters.
So, you can put a huge load on ceramic -- so long as it's applied relatively slowly and is a fairly constant force -- but if you shock it it will fail much easier than a "tougher" yet fundementally weaker material such as steel.
The final test...
Get one of those really thin spun stainless steel bowls that you can buy at the discount shop (about a 6-9" diameter.
Get a ceramic bowl of the same size.
Place both bowls upside down on a very smooth surface (maybe even a rubbers heet to ensure there are no localized areas of stress).
Place another rubber pad and flat sheet on top of the bowls. Now start adding weight.
The stainless bowl will collapse before the ceramic bowl. That's because the ceramic will be stronger and you're adding the weight slowly so as to apply a constant force.
Now take two new bowls. Drop them both on a cocrete surface. What's happened to the *stronger* bowl?
Translating this into bearings...
Undeer normal use, the ceramics will outlast the steel bearings by a significant degree and are therefore a good investment.
However, if you pile your engine nose-first into the tarmac there's a much higher chance of catastrophic bearing failure.
Likewise, if you insert your bearings by bashing them home with hammer, chances are you'll chip or fragment a ball. Of course this isn't good for regular bearings either because you'll almost certainly brinnel (create flat-spots on) the balls then too. However, there is a chance that the ceramic will shatter with shock-levels that are much lower than that which would be required to damage a regular bearing.
The solution (as some have suggested) is to ensure that your crankcase is well heated before inserting the bearings.
If they get stuck at an awkward angle, dont' be afraid to heat the engine up again to get them out and start-over.
Resist the temptation to whack them home -- it could be expensive.
Note that I've taken some liberties with descriptions and meanings above -- in an attempt to simplify and make things easier to understand for those who prefer to just fly rather than dabble in metalurgy and the details of engineering :-)
Are Ceramic Balls Brittle and Fragile?
Silicon Nitride ceramic balls do not have as high a toughness or ductility as steel. But, due to their high strength, stiffness, and microstructural make-up, they are actually much more durable than steel balls.
12-10-2006, 11:15 PM
#5612
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I have a Saito 56 that I stupidly moved the low idle speed screw. I thought it was a screw to adjust the angle of the throttle arm and tried to remove the screw and nearly succedded until I realized what I had done. Does anyone know what that idle adjustment screw is set at at the factory?
John
John
12-11-2006, 03:53 AM
#5615
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings
From CERBEC, one of the premier ceramic bearing manufacturers:
Are Ceramic Balls Brittle and Fragile?
Silicon Nitride ceramic balls do not have as high a toughness or ductility as steel. But, due to their high strength, stiffness, and microstructural make-up, they are actually much more durable than steel balls.
From CERBEC, one of the premier ceramic bearing manufacturers:
Are Ceramic Balls Brittle and Fragile?
Silicon Nitride ceramic balls do not have as high a toughness or ductility as steel. But, due to their high strength, stiffness, and microstructural make-up, they are actually much more durable than steel balls.
Start hitting them with significant shocks and they might not hold up at all well.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking ceramic bearings -- I'd use them myself if I could afford them. I'm just suggesting that folks take care with the installation of them and be aware that while they'll provide a much longer service-life than steel, they're still not going to be totally bullet-proof.
Which reminds me Paul, I must order some new bearings for my Saitos -- just in case :-)
(Yes, I'm another of Paul's very satisified customers who regularly recommends his service and products to others).
12-11-2006, 04:24 AM
#5616
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: William Robison
Just got a really fast reply from Paul (Thanks, Paul) -
Paul and RC_Bearings are still tops in my book.
Bill.
Just got a really fast reply from Paul (Thanks, Paul) -
Bill,
Anyone who is having problems should contact me. I have had some seal leakage problems with some bearings and I am trying to get to the bottom of it. I don’t think it is a quality issue but rather the type of seal. There are several seal types from hard contact seals to non-contact seals. The kind I have been using are between those. The reason I did that was for lower drag. Maybe the Saitos just don’t like those as other engines seem fine with them.
I just sent a message to my supplier regarding this problem. What I will be looking for is a stronger seal for these bearings.
I just called another customer and asked him to try something. I asked him to take the seal from his stock Saito bearing and install it in the replacement bearing I sent him. He said it fit perfectly. This may be a short-term solution until I can get better seals.
Anyone who is having problems should contact me. I have had some seal leakage problems with some bearings and I am trying to get to the bottom of it. I don’t think it is a quality issue but rather the type of seal. There are several seal types from hard contact seals to non-contact seals. The kind I have been using are between those. The reason I did that was for lower drag. Maybe the Saitos just don’t like those as other engines seem fine with them.
I just sent a message to my supplier regarding this problem. What I will be looking for is a stronger seal for these bearings.
I just called another customer and asked him to try something. I asked him to take the seal from his stock Saito bearing and install it in the replacement bearing I sent him. He said it fit perfectly. This may be a short-term solution until I can get better seals.
Bill.
12-11-2006, 06:40 AM
#5617
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
My Saito 82 has recently developed a problem that I can't find the cause of. On takeoff, frequently the motor will bogg right as the plane leaves the ground. After several seconds of barely gaining altitude, it will start running fine and develope full power. Throttle response becomes normal. As a matter of fact, it will hover and pull out without any bogging at all. This started when I switched from 30% Heli fuel to YS 20/20 and I also started messing with the idle mixture. I have spent quite a bit of time setting the needles to what I and others consider is correct. The puzzling thing is that it will transition from idle to full power with no hesitation while on the stand. The problem only occurs during takeoff.
Phillip
Phillip
12-11-2006, 07:12 AM
#5618
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Your mixture still isn't correct. Your problem now is the engine temperature. I sometimes had to readjust the mixture after flying a round when I lived in the South for a while. The plane has a throttle control.
Different nitro percentages require different mixture settings.
It may be you low speed.
If you experience a lack of response from your high speed needle - open up your low speed just a little
Different nitro percentages require different mixture settings.
It may be you low speed.
If you experience a lack of response from your high speed needle - open up your low speed just a little
12-11-2006, 09:56 AM
#5619
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: Jimmy Hoffa
My Saito 82 has recently developed a problem that I can't find the cause of. On takeoff, frequently the motor will bogg right as the plane leaves the ground. After several seconds of barely gaining altitude, it will start running fine and develope full power. Throttle response becomes normal. As a matter of fact, it will hover and pull out without any bogging at all. This started when I switched from 30% Heli fuel to YS 20/20 and I also started messing with the idle mixture. I have spent quite a bit of time setting the needles to what I and others consider is correct. The puzzling thing is that it will transition from idle to full power with no hesitation while on the stand. The problem only occurs during takeoff.
Phillip
My Saito 82 has recently developed a problem that I can't find the cause of. On takeoff, frequently the motor will bogg right as the plane leaves the ground. After several seconds of barely gaining altitude, it will start running fine and develope full power. Throttle response becomes normal. As a matter of fact, it will hover and pull out without any bogging at all. This started when I switched from 30% Heli fuel to YS 20/20 and I also started messing with the idle mixture. I have spent quite a bit of time setting the needles to what I and others consider is correct. The puzzling thing is that it will transition from idle to full power with no hesitation while on the stand. The problem only occurs during takeoff.
Phillip
If you are taking off at part throttle, you may be just a little lean at the low end still. When you lower the nitro in your fuel, the adjustments get a little more critical.
12-11-2006, 11:01 AM
#5620
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: w8ye
Your mixture still isn't correct.
Your mixture still isn't correct.
Phillip
12-11-2006, 11:06 AM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings
Do you take off at full throttle or part throttle? If it is full throttle, it may be that your tank is a long way from the carb or you have a long fuel line.
If you are taking off at part throttle, you may be just a little lean at the low end still. When you lower the nitro in your fuel, the adjustments get a little more critical.
Do you take off at full throttle or part throttle? If it is full throttle, it may be that your tank is a long way from the carb or you have a long fuel line.
If you are taking off at part throttle, you may be just a little lean at the low end still. When you lower the nitro in your fuel, the adjustments get a little more critical.
I always take off at full throttle. The plane is a Funtana X50 and the fuel tank is mounted up against the firewall. It ran fine before with the fuel tank tank in the same position and nothing has been changed. ??????? The problem MUST be the low speed needle.
Phillip
12-11-2006, 03:40 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: William Robison
PL:
From the color of the ring face it's a pretty low time engine, you may have been well advised to leave the piston in the cylinder. Regardless, since it shows little to no wear I'd put it back in.
Bill.
PL:
From the color of the ring face it's a pretty low time engine, you may have been well advised to leave the piston in the cylinder. Regardless, since it shows little to no wear I'd put it back in.
Bill.
Brother.. Again.. Thanks for your input. It will be used!! It did look like a low time motor.. Just did not burn all the fuel out before putting it up..
LATER and thanks again!!
12-11-2006, 04:02 PM
#5623
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: Jimmy Hoffa
Paul,
I always take off at full throttle. The plane is a Funtana X50 and the fuel tank is mounted up against the firewall. It ran fine before with the fuel tank tank in the same position and nothing has been changed. ??????? The problem MUST be the low speed needle.
Phillip
ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings
Do you take off at full throttle or part throttle? If it is full throttle, it may be that your tank is a long way from the carb or you have a long fuel line.
If you are taking off at part throttle, you may be just a little lean at the low end still. When you lower the nitro in your fuel, the adjustments get a little more critical.
Do you take off at full throttle or part throttle? If it is full throttle, it may be that your tank is a long way from the carb or you have a long fuel line.
If you are taking off at part throttle, you may be just a little lean at the low end still. When you lower the nitro in your fuel, the adjustments get a little more critical.
I always take off at full throttle. The plane is a Funtana X50 and the fuel tank is mounted up against the firewall. It ran fine before with the fuel tank tank in the same position and nothing has been changed. ??????? The problem MUST be the low speed needle.
Phillip
12-11-2006, 04:48 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Jimmy Hoffa, the low speed needle generally effects the idle circuit when the venturi is almost closed. It also effects low to hi transition. Try to launch the plane at full throttle by holding the tail. If you have poor tranition and you can not get an accurate adjustment, then your low speed needle is off. If thats not the cure. Purchase a new carb!!The spring in the barrel is week and causing the throttle position to rattle........try it, its the bomb,,,
12-11-2006, 05:51 PM
#5625
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings
Have you cleaned out the carb? Even the tiniest piece of FOD can cause erratic running.
Have you cleaned out the carb? Even the tiniest piece of FOD can cause erratic running.
No, not lately. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try that.
Since flying it yesterday, I have found that the Tru-Turn spinner was way out of balance. I doubt that would effect the problem though.
The crazy thing is that it runs fine on the stand and then acts up while actually taking off.
Phillip