Terry 5

My Feedback: (3)

Hobbsy
Do u think a 19x8 2 Blade Carbon, Mejzlik Propeller is heavy enough for this 220?

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Mine turns a 20x6 Just Engines carbon fiber re-inforced prop, actually a Biela at 8,150. That prop should be about the same.

vince.b

My Feedback: (1)

but the book syas not to exeed 4000 for the first ten minintes.
and you say hold it at 4k for the first ten.
as for the liner and the ring those are the last to seat.
also when breaking in any engine holding rpm is the last this yoiu want to do.
I have also heat cycle amd keep the rpm bounceing with the breakin prosses.
just my 2 cents though.
also i am a ferm believer of never touching the low speed needle until the high speed needle is set.
the transition is the last thing you want to worry about. just keep it running if it takes a few to clear on the transition who cares.
to many guys get needle happy.
this is where alot of people end up chaseing there tail because the low speed is out of wack from the high end.
with after market pumps make sure the engine is running perfect on the stand b4 you play with the after market stuff. this way you will have a base line.
I havent looked to close at the carb but it looks like a low speed fuel jet. that gets its fuel from the main jet.
if it is for sure you can give yourself a head ache by touching this little screw to soon.
the only engine that i know of that has 3 truely indepent needls/jets is the ys heli engines none of the needls efect the other ones. this is very nice feature to make tuneing fast and easy. but again same with this engine it will give you problems is you try to tune to fast for the if the engine has not seen enough fuel.
This is where i see to many people want a clean running engine to soon and that start turning this and that and chaseing there tails.
I would think saito has done some work on there new big block. must of us more then likely have the first run. there could be problems in a few. but my guess is the tools are new and the tolerences are higher.
just to ramble
most of the time when some of the guys are haveing troubles with and engine 2 or 4stroke at the field and when i decied to stick my nose in there.
I ask them how much few has the engine seen if its at leazt a gallon this is what i do.
I will leave the heat on if it sounds like it needs it.
i will get them to advance the throttle slowly to full at the same time i am opening the needle, when the carb is wide open i will open the needle almost to the point of it dying.
then i start to turn it in with the nose straight up.
I never turn the needle in as to hear the predetination as this is very damaging all kinds of parts.
when she sounds good... pull it back to a high idle put the plane on its wheels and in the plane stop.
i start to pull the idlke down and just listen when it starts to have a trould i will keep the idle over the trouble spot.
then from that high idle to full i see how the engine sounds on the transition to slow stick and then speed it up on the transition.
what i am listening for and looking at for is how the engine sounds on transition and what exactly is the smoke doing.
and do you know what i find almost all the time....
the low speed is to lean.
so many guys want that low idle to soon.
when these nitro engines are new if you want an idle you have to just about shut the ls.
of course when the engine starts to run in there is now fuel starvation at the transition.
I am not saying this is always the problem but 9 out of 10 times it is.
anyways after the first needle check and all is good I look at the plug under 8 to 12 times magnification.
ask them how much time on the plug and if it is the one that came with the engine.
anyway what i am looking for is a nice rounded coil and i would like to see a shiny chrome looking material (its not chrome i cant thing of the name) on the coil. this stuff will frost up. what this stuff does is it gives the plug the abillity to retain heat.
alot of guys will test there plug with a driver... the only thing this really shows you that its not boken.

sorry to ramble but so many guys just rush the LS. if you want a perfect running engine spend the time (like the books sayon the breakin) and run the fuel on the stand and do not touch the LS until things are seated.
I hope there is some thing hear that helps.

PUREPECHA

Hello There!!!

I'been reading all of this post the last couple of weeks and find a lot of help on all opf your posts.

I have six saitos 2-46, 1-65, 2-91 and a 125 can I qualify?


I have a question for all of you guys Included dear sir WR.

On mi recently new saito 91 I tached 10750 rpm at peak with a 14x4 apc prop, then a leaned out to 10400 on the ground. Idles at 1750.

But the question is why this little engine sounds like a turbo engine on the air at max rpm?

This last weekend when a get this engine on the air along my extra 330 freestyle I decided to try some low passes at max rpm but it freak me out when I listen to the sound of the engine, It sounds like if was over rev. or like it has a turbo !!!!LOL

Can this happen? When youre on the air the engine can over rev?


Thanks In advance to all of you

vince.b

My Feedback: (1)

you said 10.7 then you leaned to 10.4 i hope that a misstake.
the reason is static rpm (ground tuneing) Dynamic rpm (flying at speed) is what you are seeing /hearing.
your dynamic rpm is higher.
this is one reason you tune with the nose straight up and back it off a couple hundred rpm, because when you are pulling into a loop there is 1 thing making the engine lean and that gravity.
when you are level as the enigine unloads it also needs more fuel.
if you tune your engine level for almost max power as the tank gets lower it leans and as it unloads it leans and depending on the nitro content it may lean even more.
the only thing nitro does is oxygenate.
so if your prop, plane deseign fuel and needle are set just wrong (more 2 stroke) you can get a run away cascade effect.
more rpm needs more fuel and less fuel adds rpm.
@30% nitro you have 60% more oxygen

PUREPECHA

My bad Vince. I should said riched out.
Well I'm runnin coolpower 15% 4 stroke fuel. And running a cline regulator to avoid the lean side issue.

The plane should not get afected by the level of the tank with the cline regulator. do you think that I must have to go more on the rich side.

can damage to the engine happen if I keep this rpm'? Im a sport flier not a 3d guy And almost never run the plane at top speed but i'm worry about any damage to the engine.

Thanks Vince

vince.b

My Feedback: (1)

if the oil that is coming out of the exhust is close to the same color as the raw fuel you cant go wrong.
if the fuel has caster it should be a golden brown color.
I run 100% synthetic.
CP 15% 4stroke oil content is lower then what the book says.
if you dont mind the mess step it up to 2 stroke fuel.
the cp 15% is a sport blend and unless they have changed it it has always been on the low site for the oil content.
caster is old school and was great for the old engines that where made like 30 years ago.
all it does to engines is leave carbon deposites witch create hot spots inside the engine.
I have a heli engine that has over 60 gallons of 30% nitro and a 100%syn 2 sets of bearings and it still still runs great.
when i took it apart all the parts still looked perfectly new the ring the liner and 0 carbon anywhere in the engine.
when you buy your fuel alot of guys think you are paying forthe nitro but its the high end oil and content that you are paying for.

JNorton

My Feedback: (2)

Vince,
Just for fun ask Hobbsy how many Saitos he has and how many he has broken in. Personally I'll take his advice.
John

vince.b

My Feedback: (1)

hey...
the forums have always been good info and bad info. I chose to say some thing because i have been running nitro for 26 years and i dont want to sound like i know it all. but I have never seem to have problems with my engines and the engines that i tune at the field seem to run perfect, also what i teach when i tune helps the guys to understand why some is running the way that it is.
I guess i am to annel about running engines for the first few minites.
when the manual says to keep it under 4000 rpm. not to sure how that can be mistaken for holding 4000rpm.
hey I am just telling you guys for your info. you can follow adivice of how ever you like...
i know these engines are small but ask any engine builder why you do not hold a solid rpm for any lenght of time on a fresh engine.

JNorton

My Feedback: (2)

I was not disparaging your viewpoint, merely expressing my opinion.

On another tact, personally I really think the term nitro was bad publicity put out by people who do not know how an engine runs. I haven't actually known anyone who runs nitro for fuel, do you? I know a lot of people who run methanol or gasoline for fuel though. Now I'm being anal. Have a good night Vince.

John]

EDIT-> Wrote methane when I meant methanol. OOPS.

vince.b

My Feedback: (1)

maybe
but the only fuel i use says 30% nitro and 23% oil that is 100% synthetic.
i also think u ment methonal and not methane.

rexracer

I've read all the arguments for and against castor. The strongest argument against is the mess, but nobody here is saying to run straight castor, just a couple of percent. The arguments for some castor in the mix are, IMHO, undeniable. Castor protects at temps that synthetics vaporize at. Castor coats and protects against rust, where synthetics won't. I don't get to fly every week, and sometimes I'll come home, park the plane, and forget about it untill I fly it again a couple weeks later. Castor will keep it safe in my damp garage. To me the argument is similar to the people who argue against seat belts because you might get in an accident, drive off the bridge, and get trapped because the belt release jams. I'll play the odds and wear the belt, and clean the mess and keep my engine rust free. I haven't seen a glow engine yet that left the plane clean, and if my valves get gummed up after 30 gallons of fuel with 3% castor in the mix, I'll clean the engine in hot antifreeze, and marvel at how new and un-worn it still looks when I'm done.

rexracer

if you're a sport flier and not interested in 3-d, i would try a 14x6 on that .91 I don't like to see much over 10K rpm on the ground with an engine that size, it could over rev in the air when it unloads. My .82 likes a 14x6, and I'd be afraid to fly it with a 14x4. Maybe a 15x4.

JNorton

My Feedback: (2)

Yup I meant methanol if you want to spell it correctly. Opps.

I'll be quiet now as I'm not adding anything of substance to the thread.
John

vince.b

My Feedback: (1)

LOL
my spellings sucks..
yahh the caster is nice in the way and thats about it.
you can do that by useing after run also.
when there is a foren object in the fuel the caster will glob onto it and it grows and grows until the fuel until it causes a block and leans the engine. The sysnthetic oils do not do this. Caster is also good for the new modeler who will useually run the engine on the lean side so it helps alittle here. but for the guy that runs his engines always rich its not so good because the caster can carbon up the engine then if it get a lean run the deposits get a heck of alot hotter then you want.
caster also gums up the engine parts ie glazing them and cuaseing hot spots.
I have seen guys break in engines on caster keeping the needle rich and the engine is junked. It makes power but nothing like it should. all carboned up.
with 100% syn you can run it rich all day and have 0 signs of build up.
IMO there is no good reason to run caster these days, its old out of date but its cheap so guys like. it also makes engines unreliable if the mixture is to rich as it glazes (coats) the inside of your engine for this so called extra prtection) also the viscocity is very high. kinda like 25/50 oil on a cold day. you want low viscocity oil for the win.
if you are running temps over 700 you are going to have other problems. sysnthetics start to break down around 700.
caster was good in the old days because the machineing was not as good as it is today. so it helped to close the gap if you will.

PUREPECHA

You're right, I will try 15x4 and tuned up at 10000 on the ground. That probably would be safer.

Now Im confused, is the instructions booklet wrong with the numbers?

XJet

Obviously you've never tried using 2%-3% castor in a fuel where the balance is a good quality hi-tech synthetic.

This gives you the best of both worlds with no compromises.

I had a TT46Pro which I ran for about 200 hours on Omega (70%synth, 30% castor) at 18%. When I stripped the engine down to change the bearings (worn out, not rusted) the piston and head were encrusted with carbon and I had to scrape it off.

I ran the engine again for another 50 hours on Omega and could see that it was once again carboning up.

Then (without touching the engine) I switched to Coopers Plus C oil (another synth/castor blend but with a *much* higher quality synthetic component and far less castor).

When I pulled that engine down a few weeks back to do another set of bearings (380+ hours of total running) it was obvious that the Plus C oil had actually cleaned off most of that carbon which had previously formed. This engine needed *no* cleaning, the piston and head having no appreciable carbon build up despite the many hours running. There was a black stain to the head and the crown of the piston, but there was no perceptible carbon build up. Clearly the synth component of the Plus C oil takes care of any carbonization of the castor that might occur.

And it seems that in order to enjoy the benefits that castor offers (rust-resistance, extreme temperature protection) you don't need a fist-full of the stuff, just a few percent (of the total fuel volume) is more than enough.

So why would you *not* run 2%-3% of castor when you have everything to gain and nothing to lose -- especially when you're talking about an expensive 4-stroke where extreme film strength is critical in the area of the camshaft/lifter interface.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

The Saito manuals set the engines up to run very rich during break in, so I'm doing it that way. Besides, it works well and it never does any harm to the engine. Never saw a junked Saito from doing it this way.

Is that synthetic protection up to 700 degrees Farenheit? What brand are you talking about?

vince.b

My Feedback: (1)

power master and cool power are wat i am useing right now. I have never tried there mixed blends, last i looked they did not make a blend with 2-3% caster it was always heaver like 75syn and 25. I use to add a bit of caster to the syn but just stoped doing it years ago because the guys that i do the bulk fuel orders never wanted the the custom blends. so I just stayed with the heli high test.
started useing it in my airplane engines and never looked back, the engines just run better. there is no other way to say it.
I have mainly run high rpm heli engines for about the past 5 years. I used a few different blends but ended up on the premium fuel because it elimated so many little things. Like mid range issuse, idleing, wider power band and best of all the power.
Most guys would only get like 25 to 35 gallons/hours (more like 50minite gallons) on a set of bearings before they were worn out not rusted and had to be replaced.
and like 60 to 80 gallons before a new piston ring and liner was needed.
280 hours on a set of bearings is awsome not to mention 380 on a ring piston and liner. From what i can tell the fuel blend I use is the best you can get right now. I like to fill the tank and run mystuff hard. the only real engine problem i had on the 30% was in a 91 heli dual plug head was the rod let go on a fairly new engine (think it had maybe 15 gallons. The needles were set just a bit to rich and it let go when i was poping it up from an inverted hover on the deck.... it was awesome cause cause i saved it except for the engine.
sounded cool to.... you could hear the hard misses then it fired then an inastant hard stop
After i fly i use to put caster in the engines but they just gum up hard and fast. I just use klotz now. and keeping the engines warm and turning them once and a while helps the bearings also.
btw
does your fuel leave a glaze like silica on the parts?
the only way to really see this is if you need to replace the ring.
remove the old ring break it and use one of the pieces to clean out the ring groove on the piston. I had to do this on and engine that needed a new ring when the new one would not fit on the old piston.
cheaper synthetics will leave this deposite behind it also contamiants the plug to.
sorry to ramble so much.... just waiten on parts right now... and it seemed like a great place to chat about the hobby

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

The exact wording in bold type is DO NOT EXCEED 4,000 RPM FOR THE FIRST 10 MINUTES. It does not say to keep it under but if you want yours at 3,999 rpm go for it.
I own the following Saitos,
(2) Saito .30s
(1) old FA .40
(1) old FA .45
(1) new .40a
(1) FA .50
(2) .56s
(2) .62s
(1) early HC .80
(1) 1.00
(1) 1.25 GK
(1) early HC 1.50S
(1) FA 2.20
(1) TS .90 twin
(1) .90 triple radial
(1) 1.30 twin
I had a .91 GK that now resides at w8yes and a .72 that now belongs to Dar. I have broken in and set up several others for flyin buds and some on here.
My engines only get WildCat fuel, I got a good deal on 6 gallons of PowerMaster and that is now gone. There was no noticeable difference in the performance between the WC and the PM since both were 15%/18% 80/20 syn/castor blend. In nearly all cases I run Fox Miracle plugs.

Kmot

My Feedback: (24)

Re: engine break-in. Bottom line, whatever works for you, works.

As an aside, in another life I was an aircraft mechanic. For a time, I worked at Aero Engines, Inc. AE builds radial engines. I built P&W 985 and 1340 power sections. For a period of a year, I also did the test stand break-in and running of the engines. That included P&W and Jacobs radials. The P&W's in many cases had chromed cylinders. All AE engines were delivered to the customer fully broken-in, ready to mount and fly.

The procedure I used to break-in the engine was established by the owners of the shop and was used before me, by me, and by those who followed me. This procedure was to:

1) Start engine, let idle at 1000 rpm, and check for fluid leaks. If all is okay, then:
2) Run engine at 1200 rpm for XX minutes
3) Run engine at 1400 rpm for XX minutes
4) Run engine at 1600 RPM for XX minutes
5) Run engine at 1800 rpm for the longest duration at XX minutes

All the while, I was recording oil consumption, fuel consumption, manifold pressure, CHT, EGT, etc. The radials consume oil like fuel, and once the oil consumption was down to a certain rate, I knew the piston rings had been seated.

6) Finally, run engine at 2200 rpm, take-off power, for XX minutes.

So, the statement that running a freshly built engine at steady rpm is bad, is not a correct statement.

jessiej

I believe the 700 degree synthetic to be the stuff available on the black market in certain parts of FSU (Former Soviet Union). Originally created to lubricate the inner workings of neuclear reactors on submarines, it was found to work well with piston/liner sets made from Bombastium.


jess

pimpedaccord

My Feedback: (21)

I just got a 100GK w/ Perry pump and am looking to keep a common fuel for this and a OS 160 2 stroke. I fly 3D only. Is it possible to use Cool Power 30% heli for both? What about 15% heli (the LHS has that in stock).

JNorton

My Feedback: (2)

I use Omega 15% for both my 2 and 4 strokes.

PUREPECHA

I also use cool power 15% from my LHS. For both two and four strokes