Welcome to Club SAITO !
11-02-2008, 11:29 AM
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Hobbsy had to open the valves up a little to get it to run.
Well, that would reduce the amount of valve lift, wouldn't it? So why would less valve lift had made the engine start, when more valve lift would not? I think perhaps the cold weather would have made it difficult to start under any valave adjustment circumstance?
11-02-2008, 11:42 AM
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
This was Hobbsy's Saito 30 that was painted. The valves were so tight that the engine wouldn't idle below 3000.
Yes Dave had to open the clearance on the valve rocker arm adjusters to Saito specs
Yes Dave had to open the clearance on the valve rocker arm adjusters to Saito specs
11-02-2008, 11:47 AM
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I think he had the lash set so tight that the valves we not seating completely and there was a loss of compression?
Some Saito cams have a clearance ramp before the actual lobe, and that takes up the lash before the valve actually starts to come off the seat. But when you set the lash so close, say .0005 the valve(s ) start to come off their seats way too early.
Some Saito cams have a clearance ramp before the actual lobe, and that takes up the lash before the valve actually starts to come off the seat. But when you set the lash so close, say .0005 the valve(s ) start to come off their seats way too early.
11-02-2008, 11:51 AM
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I think that maybe the rockers were over adjusted and the valves were not closing. It happens. It just does not make sense that an engine will not idle because the valves are 'tight'. As long as they are seating and sealing, and then opening to let air/fuel in it should run and if they open slightly more, particularly at idle, it would only be a matter of closing the carb barrel slightly more to lower the idle speed.
I have seen engines with the rockers over adjusted so tight that the valve will not seat and the engine will not run, period. But I have never seen an engine with the valves seating properly refuse to run because the rockers are adjusted tight. In contrast, a loose rocker setting will retard the timing of the engine, and make it harder to start and also it will develop less than rated power because of the retarded timing and reduced amount of fuel/air being consumed.
I have seen engines with the rockers over adjusted so tight that the valve will not seat and the engine will not run, period. But I have never seen an engine with the valves seating properly refuse to run because the rockers are adjusted tight. In contrast, a loose rocker setting will retard the timing of the engine, and make it harder to start and also it will develop less than rated power because of the retarded timing and reduced amount of fuel/air being consumed.
11-02-2008, 11:58 AM
Senior Member
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: sodbuster 1
Mike,
How did you have the flex connected?
Directly or via a 90 degree elbow?
What type was the flex pipe? One with the end cap itself threading to the head or an elbow? or one of the ones that already had an elbow integral to it?
Also, where did it break?
Mike,
How did you have the flex connected?
Directly or via a 90 degree elbow?
What type was the flex pipe? One with the end cap itself threading to the head or an elbow? or one of the ones that already had an elbow integral to it?
Also, where did it break?
11-02-2008, 12:02 PM
Senior Member
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: Old Fart
Mike early do you have any play in your throttle linkage?
Mike early do you have any play in your throttle linkage?
Hey Hey. Page Five Hundred!
11-02-2008, 12:17 PM
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Somewhere in Bill's comments over the years he made a statement to the effect, (which I have heard all my life), "an engine with loose valves will idle great but will not have as much power on the top end as when they are adjusted correctly". And too tight valves will cause poor performance all across the operational range. Some of the rest of Bill's comments along this line was that too much clearance caused excessive valve train wear and noise in the long term.
Back in the automobile days of old with mechanical lifters, points, and plug gaps, sometimes, when you "Tuned" the engine up and closed all the gaps up to minimum specifications, the engine didn't idle as well as it did before you worked on it. I guess this is a poor example because in this case it was more related to the smaller spark gap in the plugs?
In drag racing we would experiment some with the clearance on the old Chevy & Ford cams and make a couple runs to see if we made it better or worse.
Back in the automobile days of old with mechanical lifters, points, and plug gaps, sometimes, when you "Tuned" the engine up and closed all the gaps up to minimum specifications, the engine didn't idle as well as it did before you worked on it. I guess this is a poor example because in this case it was more related to the smaller spark gap in the plugs?
In drag racing we would experiment some with the clearance on the old Chevy & Ford cams and make a couple runs to see if we made it better or worse.
11-02-2008, 12:36 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bournemouth, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: sodbuster 1
2 members of our club have/had this version of the Decathlon.
One had it powered with the equivalent of a .40 2 stroke in electric. Not enough power and tended to tip stall very badly. So much so that on his last takeoff it tip stalled,winged over and was unrecoverable.End of plane.
The other member has a Saito .62 in it and it flys perfectly scale. Will do anything the full size will and sounds sweet. Gives the plane a very scale feel on low flybys at half throttle.Plenty of power for whoopsie recoveries.
While the .82 would definitely give it tons of power (and not very scale at full throttle), you'd end up having a bit of extra weight to counter balance
2 members of our club have/had this version of the Decathlon.
One had it powered with the equivalent of a .40 2 stroke in electric. Not enough power and tended to tip stall very badly. So much so that on his last takeoff it tip stalled,winged over and was unrecoverable.End of plane.
The other member has a Saito .62 in it and it flys perfectly scale. Will do anything the full size will and sounds sweet. Gives the plane a very scale feel on low flybys at half throttle.Plenty of power for whoopsie recoveries.
While the .82 would definitely give it tons of power (and not very scale at full throttle), you'd end up having a bit of extra weight to counter balance
The 82 really does give it something, but I don't want that much
I only want scale(ish) and light sport with a bit more power
The SC70FS is about what I want, but only slightly cheaper than the Saito 62
The Saito 82 and 72 are pricey but 62 is cheap
Wasn't too sure the 62 would be enough as the 56 is definately not
11-02-2008, 03:04 PM
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Hi EZ.Sodbusters comments are spot on.I have the battery pack mounted in the tail.Post some pics of yours when it's finished please.The 62 costs about $280 here,the 82 was $325.As mentioned good power and scale performance from the 62.
11-02-2008, 05:07 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bournemouth, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Hi Old Fart,
The Saito 82 here is £160+ thats $400 yours
The 62 is £120 thats $290 yours
So big difference in price over here for the 82
The Saito 56 is £140 thats $340 yours, more expensive than 62!!!
I also have the Seagull Extra 260 1.8M (160) but thats going to be a CRRC 26i gasser
I have everything for this so I will probably start this first
I have the Decathlon kit already too but been thinking over what engine
As the Saito 62 seems to be good enough for my intentions for the Decathlon I will be going for that
I'm really liking these Seagull kits now
My local model shop stock most of the models
Excellent value and quality to match and an extra 10% off (20% off MRP)
I'm not a picture as I build type, but I'll definately post some of the finished model
Funny how I just wanted a simple model with the Decathlon
Now ending up going to fit a Saito in it
Original spec: Seagull Decathlon; MDS 48; Futaba S3001
New spec: Seagull Decathlon; Saito 62A; Spektrum DS821 servos
My whole fleet is going to end up with all Saitos
I even thought about the Saito gasser for the Extra 260, so please, nobody try to temp me
The Saito 82 here is £160+ thats $400 yours
The 62 is £120 thats $290 yours
So big difference in price over here for the 82
The Saito 56 is £140 thats $340 yours, more expensive than 62!!!
I also have the Seagull Extra 260 1.8M (160) but thats going to be a CRRC 26i gasser
I have everything for this so I will probably start this first
I have the Decathlon kit already too but been thinking over what engine
As the Saito 62 seems to be good enough for my intentions for the Decathlon I will be going for that
I'm really liking these Seagull kits now
My local model shop stock most of the models
Excellent value and quality to match and an extra 10% off (20% off MRP)
I'm not a picture as I build type, but I'll definately post some of the finished model
Funny how I just wanted a simple model with the Decathlon
Now ending up going to fit a Saito in it
Original spec: Seagull Decathlon; MDS 48; Futaba S3001
New spec: Seagull Decathlon; Saito 62A; Spektrum DS821 servos
My whole fleet is going to end up with all Saitos
I even thought about the Saito gasser for the Extra 260, so please, nobody try to temp me
11-02-2008, 07:38 PM
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Dalles,
OR
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Kmot, if I remember correctly the .0005 clearance was for those cams that do not have the ramp. It seem, as i recall that the .002 or the .oo15 settings were for the cams that have a ramp on them. That's as I recall, but then again I'm past 62. Tom
11-02-2008, 08:11 PM
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: Tom Jones
Kmot, if I remember correctly the .0005 clearance was for those cams that do not have the ramp. It seem, as i recall that the .002 or the .oo15 settings were for the cams that have a ramp on them. That's as I recall, but then again I'm past 62. Tom
Kmot, if I remember correctly the .0005 clearance was for those cams that do not have the ramp. It seem, as i recall that the .002 or the .oo15 settings were for the cams that have a ramp on them. That's as I recall, but then again I'm past 62. Tom
That's how I remember it too...but I don't know which cams have the ramp and which ones don't...
I think Bill said pretty much the same thing? He had a (I think very ) short list of the ones he knew did have it...but we'd need to do a search to find that.
I'll give it a shot....lessee what happens.
Edit: did a search for "ramp" and found results listed in post below...
11-02-2008, 08:17 PM
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Cincinnati,
OH
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I have always set my valve lash at between .001" and .002". I'm not good enough to say exactly WHERE it was between those two dimensions, because I only use a set of feeler gauges. Bill R said he used a dial indicator, and that is probably why he could set the clearance more precisely.
I don't know if it is best to set the clearance as low as I do or not. I started doing that on Bill's recommendation. That is why I asked the question.... Is it harmful to set valve lash lower than .002"?
I don't know if it is best to set the clearance as low as I do or not. I started doing that on Bill's recommendation. That is why I asked the question.... Is it harmful to set valve lash lower than .002"?
11-02-2008, 08:54 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bournemouth, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: Michaelh
The 36cc Saito would be a better fit then that .26cc. Your going to need more power
The 36cc Saito would be a better fit then that .26cc. Your going to need more power
But still not tempted...
...yet...
My 125A is about two years old and about 4 gallons through it
Runs really well
Have never even check the valve clearances
Should I...and how often ?
11-02-2008, 08:55 PM
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I certainly don't want to offend anyone here, or no longer here; but I have often wondered why end-users (us, or at least me) would think that they know more about a particular product than the engineers who had designed that same product.
R/C is competing for $$$ at the margin, at least for the most part, and one would think that the manufacturer would provide specifications that provide optimum performance for a particular product. After all, if one's Saito does not perform well, someone else's O(ther) S(tuff) may!
No doubt, the specs may not provide the ultimate performance for every particular (in this case) Saito. But, those specifications will probably provide excellent performance from all most every (in this case) Saito. Producers do have to deal with production variances. And, in fact, there seems to be very little perceptible difference among Saitos of any particular displacement. The consistency is rather amazing...at least to me. I am not an engineer, machinist, or mechanic, so perhaps I am too easily amazed!!!
My Saitos are all maintained within Saito's specifications and they all run very nicely.
To each his own.
R/C is competing for $$$ at the margin, at least for the most part, and one would think that the manufacturer would provide specifications that provide optimum performance for a particular product. After all, if one's Saito does not perform well, someone else's O(ther) S(tuff) may!
No doubt, the specs may not provide the ultimate performance for every particular (in this case) Saito. But, those specifications will probably provide excellent performance from all most every (in this case) Saito. Producers do have to deal with production variances. And, in fact, there seems to be very little perceptible difference among Saitos of any particular displacement. The consistency is rather amazing...at least to me. I am not an engineer, machinist, or mechanic, so perhaps I am too easily amazed!!!
My Saitos are all maintained within Saito's specifications and they all run very nicely.
To each his own.
11-02-2008, 09:23 PM
My Feedback: (102)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Colonial Beach, VA
Posts: 20,370
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes
on
25 Posts
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Amen, I've maintained my Saitos by the book for 17 years and have never had a cam look like the ones Bill showed us. I think the hammered cams were the result of no maintainance and no castor at all. So far, I've never replaced a bearing in a Saito and only in used engines I've bought of other brands.
11-02-2008, 09:24 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bournemouth, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I would say it's more of the pleasure of tweeking the engine
I'm a ( "if it's not broken, don't fix it" ) type
I have 2 MDS engines, NIB they are rough
Couldn't tune the needle and often dead sticks
Everything in the manual was bull****
Had to strip, re-machine some parts and more
So now they are not the manufactures spec but run really well
My Saitos run really sweet, so no reason to modify anything
Not even checked my valve clearances
I'm a ( "if it's not broken, don't fix it" ) type
I have 2 MDS engines, NIB they are rough
Couldn't tune the needle and often dead sticks
Everything in the manual was bull****
Had to strip, re-machine some parts and more
So now they are not the manufactures spec but run really well
My Saitos run really sweet, so no reason to modify anything
Not even checked my valve clearances
11-02-2008, 09:42 PM
My Feedback: (102)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Colonial Beach, VA
Posts: 20,370
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes
on
25 Posts
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Chop, I don't buy that for one minute, I have about 12 MDS engines from a .48 to a 2.18 and their machine work is first rate. I have flown all but a used .58 I bought and one of the 2.18s. My .78 and one of the 1.48s are converted to Diesel operation.
11-02-2008, 10:36 PM
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I thought the 'hammered' cams were due to lifters hammering them due to loose rocker clearance. Certainly not from being tight.
11-03-2008, 03:44 AM
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: EZchopper
Hi Old Fart,
The Saito 82 here is £160+ thats $400 yours
The 62 is £120 thats $290 yours
So big difference in price over here for the 82
The Saito 56 is £140 thats $340 yours, more expensive than 62!!!
I also have the Seagull Extra 260 1.8M (160) but thats going to be a CRRC 26i gasser
I have everything for this so I will probably start this first
I have the Decathlon kit already too but been thinking over what engine
As the Saito 62 seems to be good enough for my intentions for the Decathlon I will be going for that
I'm really liking these Seagull kits now
My local model shop stock most of the models
Excellent value and quality to match and an extra 10% off (20% off MRP)
I'm not a picture as I build type, but I'll definately post some of the finished model
Funny how I just wanted a simple model with the Decathlon
Now ending up going to fit a Saito in it
Original spec: Seagull Decathlon; MDS 48; Futaba S3001
New spec: Seagull Decathlon; Saito 62A; Spektrum DS821 servos
My whole fleet is going to end up with all Saitos
I even thought about the Saito gasser for the Extra 260, so please, nobody try to temp me
Hi Old Fart,
The Saito 82 here is £160+ thats $400 yours
The 62 is £120 thats $290 yours
So big difference in price over here for the 82
The Saito 56 is £140 thats $340 yours, more expensive than 62!!!
I also have the Seagull Extra 260 1.8M (160) but thats going to be a CRRC 26i gasser
I have everything for this so I will probably start this first
I have the Decathlon kit already too but been thinking over what engine
As the Saito 62 seems to be good enough for my intentions for the Decathlon I will be going for that
I'm really liking these Seagull kits now
My local model shop stock most of the models
Excellent value and quality to match and an extra 10% off (20% off MRP)
I'm not a picture as I build type, but I'll definately post some of the finished model
Funny how I just wanted a simple model with the Decathlon
Now ending up going to fit a Saito in it
Original spec: Seagull Decathlon; MDS 48; Futaba S3001
New spec: Seagull Decathlon; Saito 62A; Spektrum DS821 servos
My whole fleet is going to end up with all Saitos
I even thought about the Saito gasser for the Extra 260, so please, nobody try to temp me
Was looking at a 72" blackhorse extra 300L because i'd like to run the fg36 in a model with plenty of performance.Might build a bigger dcaff to suit as extra's and yaks are pretty thick on the ground.Yes dcaffs are like that to buy...i walked into the shop planning on a lekky sailplane
now i'm in over my head and here's a pic of the dcaff with 82 and 14x6 apc pattern prop.Let me know how the low wing goes.